The culture war is killing us [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#181

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 8:39 PM UTC

ladyattis wrote: post #142

da02 wrote: post #16

Isn't this normal for US politics? This clip could as well have applied to the 60s and 70s. For example: > The late 1960s, early 1970s saw a dramatic shift in the American political matrix, a redefinition of competing political ideologies or belief systems. War, urban riots, campus protests and student alienation, assassinations, inter-generational mistrust, monetary inflation, the growth of the welfare-warfare state…

The reality is that the US has always been tribal. There's been religious tribalism, racial tribalism (non-Irish v Irish, Black v White, etc), and even regional tribalism despite the rising national consciousness during and after the American Civil War. I'm not saying it's good but I'm just wanting to state it's always been there. Today, the Internet makes it just easier to see. Instead of having to hear it at the lo…

The difference now is the risk of tribalism becoming sectarianism, which is where anyone who doesn't agree with you is an enemy not to be trusted. The transition between those two is the determining factor on if civil war and widespread violence becomes likely. Sectarianism isn't common and hasn't happened en masse since the 1860s.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#182

Post by foofoo4u » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #66

clcaev wrote: post #10

I believe the cultural wars focus the population's attention on issues that divide us, rather than issues that would unite: concentration of power, gutting of main street, etc. The detachment of our news and media from local civics denies our population practice working together, with real problems, with real consensus. Instead the polarization is on more abstract, national, and intractable concerns -- political spor…

> As technologists, how can we work to rebuild regional and local political and economic sovereignty? I think you hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, technologists are naturally focused on scaling solutions up to the entire world. We want to use technology to push hard real world problems behind a screen, behind keyboards, and behind servers. This creates a contradiction in our thinking that cannot be resolved.…

It reminds me of an Australian 60 Minutes episode that was about the energy crisis in the country. I don't know if its been resolved yet, but at the time of the filming, which wasn't too long ago, Australia was facing a severe energy issue in which the cost of electricity became astronomical. A significant portion of people's income was being spent on energy alone. And this seems to be a highly contentious issue in the country. A significant portion of the episode was about solving the problem by utilizing Solar Energy technology from Elon Musk. This bothered me, because it was emblematic of the silicon valley mindset. Which is to obsess over solving the world's problems with technology. Many problems can be solved with good policy alone. Having the right laws, the right incentives, the right talent, and the right balance of power is the most effective way to solve issues. The discussion about technology should come after not before a discussion about proper policy takes place. Sure, maybe the solar tech in this case will help lower costs. But that's probably only because it is an efficiency appended to something that shouldn't be inefficient in the first place. Another way to frame this is: there are many other countries out there with similar infrastructure to Australia that do not have the same issues thanks to better policy.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#183

Post by jrsj » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 8:51 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #136

jrsj wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why are the aligned on this issue now when they never were before? Because after the Great Recession people were beginning to align against them outside of their predetermined demographic categories. These narratives and the way we talk about them don’t arise organically, they’re constructed and pushed out intentionally to serve a political purpose . Less than 20 years ago the same people unanimously told us that…

> But why are the aligned on this issue now when they never were before? Major institutions were brought around by activist pressure to pay lip service to racial justics issues before by thr Civil Rights Movement; BLM isn’t unique in that. > Less than 20 years ago the same people unanimously told us that the war in Iraq was good and necessary. No, the people positions of influence supporting BLM do bot consist exclus…

Why would it have to be exclusively? That doesn’t even make any sense, nothing works that way. There’s still a HUGE overlap.

Regardless, if you actually quantify it over time, there is a sharp uptick in discussion of race and identity politics in general shortly after Occupy Wall Street. The same rhetoric was used to attack Bernie Sanders and his supporters despite from the 2016 primary onward.

Is it technically a “conspiracy theory” to suggest this is intentional? Sure. But that doesn’t mean it’s not true, or that this is purely a coincidence.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#184

Post by sangnoir » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

barbacoa wrote: post #180

sangnoir wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suddenly the white working class outside of major economic centers, the same ones who have seen their economic prospects erode over a generation due to deindustrialization can be painted as the villain and racists. May you please expand on this, because I am not following how white working class outsiders are involved. To my knowledge, corps & MLB have commented on specific actions by organizations such as the poli…

There have been countless corporations that are openly supporting BLM and pushing the "everything is about race" narrative because it is a distraction from the increasing wealth inequality that has led to rising economic popularism, which has in the past helped candidates like donald trump or bernie sanders who the powers-to-be want to keep out of office.

> There have been countless corporations that are openly supporting BLM and pushing the "everything is about race"

I'm afraid that still doesn't answer my question. Corporations supporting BLM does not does not make "white working working class the villain and racists" unless you assume supporting black activists automatically pits you against white working class folk - and I disagree with this unstated assumption (if I'm parsing you correctly). I apologize if this is not the implied logic - and I ask that you break it down for me so I can understand, as briefly as you possibly can.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#185

Post by barbacoa » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:10 PM UTC

sangnoir wrote: post #184

barbacoa wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been countless corporations that are openly supporting BLM and pushing the "everything is about race" narrative because it is a distraction from the increasing wealth inequality that has led to rising economic popularism, which has in the past helped candidates like donald trump or bernie sanders who the powers-to-be want to keep out of office.

> There have been countless corporations that are openly supporting BLM and pushing the "everything is about race" I'm afraid that still doesn't answer my question. Corporations supporting BLM does not does not make "white working working class the villain and racists" unless you assume supporting black activists automatically pits you against white working class folk - and I disagree with this unstated assumption (i…

>supporting black activists automatically pits you against white working class folk

That does seem to be the perception.

One of the core ideas of BLM is that we live in a systematic racist society. If that is true who are the perpetrators?

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#186

Post by mousepilot » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:21 PM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #125

salimmadjd wrote: post #7

Have many of us have become the useful idiots of the corporate media overloads? I know it's fashionable to blame Facebook for the divisiveness, but I'm old enough to recall Obama's 2004 DNC speech that got him his first national attention. Before there was Facebook, Obama was talking about divisiveness. I firmly believe anger and anxiety is constantly injected into the mainstream corporate media to increase eyeballs…

Obama's speech was about hope and change, "yes we can". Yes we can elect a black man as President but yes we can change and do better. This was on the back of Bush's destruction of the economy. The divisiveness happened when the tea party took off in 2009 after Obama was elected and the tea party dialed up the oldest trope in the book, race. It was also the only part of the republican party that could oppose the ACA.…

you're right of course, this entire thread seems like trumps "both sides" thing.

the video has some merit, but one of the mistakes in the video (in my opinion) is telling us to "politely explain our side", but I've had much more success being deeply curious about the other side and its been very enlightening. If a friend feels differently about politics than I do, I want to be the sort of person to converse about the differences while keeping the friend. Its never too late for me to learn something and learn I have!

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#187

Post by jl2718 » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:25 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #174

jl2718 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framed? That is a completely stupid thing to believe, and I have never heard it suggested by anybody except you. The problem here is not those boogeymen that don’t exist. It’s you. And now me because I’ve dragged myself down to your level.

I flagged your comment. Calling names and pointing fingers doesn't solve anything. Especially since, in this case, you are reacting to something I did not say (and I reread my post to make sure).

> so many people claim ...

No they don’t. You created that monster in your mind. And you breathe life into it by telling the world it exists. What difference is there then, between that monster, and you.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#188

Post by mousepilot » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:30 PM UTC

jl2718 wrote: post #130

Dark pattern: War is bad. It’s their fault. Therefore, war is good. So sick of this zero-information propagandertainmemt. Admitting dysfunction doesn’t fix it. Candid reporting of facts would fix it. There are hundred page reports written for every incident that hits the news cycle, and all they give is some uninformed celebrity opinion. People cannot be that stupid. Maybe they are though. TV news is basically a seni…

not me, I tune into the news. I can understand why others want to tune out, but its not for everyone.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#189

Post by mousepilot » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:34 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #140

teekert wrote: post #93

I see it in the smartest people I know. I live in the Netherlands but I have a "CNN addicted" colleague. And I like to tease her and say things like: "You know people want to carry guns so the government does not have a monopoly on violence, so when you feel like you got a leader (as you do now [this was Trump era]) that really does not have the consent of the governed anymore, you may not be powerless." Sure, societ…

I won't froth, but I won't have dinner with a Republican either. Their last Presidential candidate was deliberately insulting. We're not just talking about a media figure or fringe candidate, but a person they actually voted for. I came to this conclusion before 2016; 2016 merely marks the point where it became so obvious that no reasonable person could deny it. Even if they didn't pull the lever for him, he was mere…

I differ on this too, I listen to my republican voting friends because I value their friendship more than political differences.

Much of this "culture war" is actually a difference in values, so I seek out what my friends values are. Sometimes I feel like I'd like to offer counterpoints, sometimes I don't but its not such a big deal for me that I can't hang out with conservatives OR liberals.

Re: The culture war is killing us [video]

#190

Post by mousepilot » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:36 PM UTC

mtc010170 wrote: post #42

ausbah wrote: post #37

I very much dislike media like this that tries to reduce polarization by "presenting both sides" because, at least on its face, falsely presents "both sides" as "equally valid" when that just isn't true there are positions like trans rights, voting restrictions, climate change, etc. that don't have "equally valid perspectives" from both sides - and treating like such is foolish I know attitude doesn't help the proble…

Hmmm. While I likely agree with you on many of the issues you’re highlighting.. what your response highlights more is exactly what the hosts are identifying as the real problem. Which is kind of ironic.

On the other hand, "both sides" can be used to rationalize bad actors. I'd imagine that 1940's Germany would be an excellent countpoint to the "both sides" fallacy.

Sometimes there really are bad guys and its useful to keep an eye out for them.