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Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

extremetech.com

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Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#701

Post by ska »

kevstev wrote: post #466
hutrdvnj wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've always thought Intel's marketing was a bit confused - i7 stays the same over 10+ years I think that is because the performance has been the same for the past 10+ years.

I am continually astounded that the quad core sandy bridge core-i7 I bought in January 2011 is still completely serviceable for pretty much all tasks outside of gaming. The bezel and overall form factor is clownishly large by todays standards, and the screen is starting to look a bit faded, but as a portable but mostly stationary PC it still works great alongside my main laptop I use for work. I knew back in 2011 I w…

> I bought in January 2011 is still completely serviceable for pretty

Isn't this essentially what Apple's observation was (and hence their spec choices)?

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#702

Post by reader_mode »

yoz-y wrote: post #528
reader_mode wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft is almost always a generation behind with tech in surface products it's ridiculous because they look so appealing otherwise. I just feel like I'm buying last years model on launch.

That is really a problem only if you watch tech news. In reality people use computers for years, so having a 4 or 5 year old tech doesn't really matter that much.

Developers should be upgrading on 2-3 year cycles max - the leap in performance of 2 generations noticeably impacts performance and unless you're doing some really trivial stuff - performance matters.

Check out Chrome build time benchmarks between 3/4xxx and 5xxx series (or any dev tool related benchmarks). 10-20% off your iteration cycle is noticeable - and that's a single generation jump.

Increasing iteration speed is a big productivity boosts, seeing professionals with 5+ year old devices is just ridiculous to me, you spend 8+ hours on that device - investing 2000$ for an upgrade every two years is not that much to ask.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#703

Post by sudosysgen »

my123 wrote: post #487
sudosysgen wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how downclocking chips work. Reducing the wattage reduces performance by much less. In multicore workloads Zen 3 slaps the M1 even per watt.

Nope, about Zen 3. 5800U (Zen 3 mobile) and M1 are actually very close multithread perf wise despite one being a 8 core part and the other a 4+4 part. And with more power use for Zen 3 too. What hurts Zen 3 there is while the M1 maintains the full clock with all cores busy, Zen 3 has to downclock away from its max turbo clocks.

Which benchmarks are we talking about?

The 5800u is a 15w part, you might be confusing the normal part with some overclocked implementation.

But the 5800u at 15w is still faster than the M1 in multicore.

Yes, Zen has to downclock, but it has more cores.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#704

Post by kzrdude »

cj wrote: post #310
arvinsim wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web Developer here. Wouldn't accept anything less than 32GB for a work machine.

(Curious) why? VScode, Chrome, and a terminal running a local server usually will do fine with 16gb or less. Are you testing with or querying massive data sets locally or something?

Chrome can fill all your ram, just add more tabs (I'm usually at 100-200+ unfortunately).

With Firefox and auto tab suspend (addon), it's manageable.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#705

Post by my123 »

raxxorrax wrote: post #459
rswail wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ran Linux for years on laptops/desktops/servers, doing OLTP software that does millions txns/day. I adopted Linux back when Solaris was the way to go for backends. But moved to Mac (and OSX) about 8 years ago. I don't get the "locked down" thing. On my current macs (a 2020 iMac and a 2015 MBP) I run Macports that lets me install pretty much every bit of userland software that I want. I also get the advantages of th…

But there is no technical reason for it being locked down. I don't want to subject myself to more of this, which would be the result if I get dependent on it. Why would I? There are only disadvantages if I don't want to sell software for the ecosystem. I do some low level system developing and I doubt I would ever switch to MacOS for this. Higher level software? Maybe, but as I said, why give Apple any handle here an…

Then just turn SIP off via csrutil disable.

You can then debug anything, load unsigned kernel modules...

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#706

Post by sib »

klelatti wrote: post #497
earthboundkid wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this point is so obvious, I feel like I've got to be missing something. I am a professional programmer. I am vaguely aware that Intel chips have X-Lake based codenames. I have no idea how to compare the chip in my current laptop to a new laptop based on Intel's marketing names. To convince myself to upgrade, I just go to Geekbench, because nothing else in the marketing tells me the new chip is better. Seems like…

I think Intel's marketing may have fallen down because: - At one point everyone upgraded their PC every few years anyway. - Just having Intel on the box was sufficiently impressive to make the sale. Now they really need to push their latest CPUs as the latest and greatest. I like the Lake names but I've never understood from a marketing perspective (what have chips got to do with lakes - were they designed near these…

Many years ago Intel got sued for using code names that were things like "Hendrix" so they started using code names that were geographic features that could not be "owned" by others...

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#707

Post by mh8h »

KMnO4 wrote: post #533
kevstev wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am continually astounded that the quad core sandy bridge core-i7 I bought in January 2011 is still completely serviceable for pretty much all tasks outside of gaming. The bezel and overall form factor is clownishly large by todays standards, and the screen is starting to look a bit faded, but as a portable but mostly stationary PC it still works great alongside my main laptop I use for work. I knew back in 2011 I w…

I think that’s because 99% of regular computer tasks don’t need 24 cores operating at 5 billion cycles per second. The differences between an i7-4xxx and i7-11xxx are more about hardware acceleration, eg HEVC and SIMD. That’s why they look so much better in benchmarks that are designed with that in mind. My main desktop is an unRAID server that hosts multiple VMs. Only yesterday I discovered that I accidentally only…

I have a 15" retina MacBook Pro from 2012, and another from 2018. The one from 2012 is fine for everyday use. But the difference in single core performance, and also IO, is substantial. That's really important when it comes to a lot of typical development work. For example Rails starts at least 2x faster on the newer laptop.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#708

Post by webmobdev »

katbyte wrote: post #613
webmobdev wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look beyond the hype: - With M1, Apple has finally closed the loop and created a fully closed system that it has control over vs an x86-64 platform that is more open and gives us users more choice and control. - All new devices with M1 SoC score very poorly on repairability and upgradebility vs the x86-64 platform that still allows you to repair / upgrade RAM, memory, CPU's and other parts in an affordable mann…

> kill switch can you elaborate?

In all its iDevices, and mac with T2 security chip (so all the M1 devices now), Apple offers an anti-theft feature called the "Activation Lock" - https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201365 - once activated, you can use it to erase all data on your iDevice remotely and ensure that nobody can use it without knowing your Apple ID and password. It's a useful feature.

But if a government (or Apple) wants, this can be abused - for example, tomorrow if your country goes to war to the US, the US government could ask Apple to disable all Apple devices in that country, and Apple could do it, whether you like it or not.

(The conspiracy theory part that others are hinting at is that many believe that this can be easily extended to totally cripple the device and make it unusable.)

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#709

Post by dmitriid »

jodrellblank wrote: post #663
api wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t buy the hype until I tested an actual M1. It exceeded the hype. It feels like when I was a kid and went from a 386SX to a Pentium at 4X the speed, except the M1 was also a quarter the power consumption. It’s the first time in a over a decade I’ve felt a revolutionary step forward in a chip and the only time it has ever come with less power. Process node is a factor but I find it hard to believe it’s the only…

> " Apple didn’t do black magic. [...] Other ARM manufacturers could equal or exceed the M1 if they wanted. " I see lots of people saying "If only $company had an ARM device", and I don't understand it. My experience of ARM device is slow laggy janky products - from competing smartphones, tablets, router and network device management interfaces, year on year, the pairing is always (arm + fucking slow). It's only Appl…

Apple has had a vision for this for at least 12-13 years. Most likely, ever since (before) the transition to Intel.

The first A-series chip they officially released and named was the A4 in March 2010. That is 11 years ago. That is the beginning of M1. And the reason is originally in this amazing Ars Technica article [1]. Apple has always wanted to fully control the entire stack.

Any competitors in the same space lack either the vision, or the products, or the money to do the same thing. In the case of Microsoft and Google, their internal politics don't allow them to do the same thing (Google couldn't care less about hardware because the Web is where Google's money at; MS cares about hardware but traditionally they have relied on throwing money at partners to make them come up with solutions).

[1] Owning the stack: The legal war to control the smartphone platform, https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/09/owning-the-stack...

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#710

Post by kstrauser »

650REDHAIR wrote: post #677
sillysaurusx wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My new M1 constantly freezes, and I’m pretty sure it’s because of chrome. Or the secret SSD thrashing design flaw that Apple is hoping nobody talks about till they quietly fix it. Was a bit disappointing. I was like, finally! A new thing! I’m freeeeeee..... wait no it still freezes, I miss sandy bridge, etc.

What about Safari?

That's a perfectly valid question. Lots of people use Chrome because they've used Chrome, and that's the whole reason. Some people need Chrome because it supports some site or tool that they require. I recommend that everyone else at least try Safari and see what they think of it.
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