Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Also it is a somewhat bogus comparison: Mostly nobody complains that their car / laptop / smartphone comes from a factory, but for farming there is this strange preference for something of 50-100years past. It is not specific to farming. Handmade, artisan stuff sells well, even when it is objectively worse. And in general, people are more sympathetic to small businesses than big, faceless corporations. We value the…
As to distrusting large companies, I think that is an intuitive understanding we have that in any organization larger than 100 people, it is likely led by a sociopath. They gravitate towards positions of power, they have superficial charm that hold in large groups where you don't get to know people well, and they occur at about 1 in 100.
Bugs allowed hackers to dox John Deere tractor owners
51–60 of 72 posts
Re: Bugs allowed hackers to dox John Deere tractor owners
#52Now every litigious John Deere owner will also have a Case.
Re: Bugs allowed hackers to dox John Deere tractor owners
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
We need a new word for these high tech massive farming operations. I come from the Canadian farming sector. Most of the farmers here are individuals, or medium sized family operations. Even the big farms aren't "high tech". There just a lot of guys and a bunch of leased machines. We have essentially 0 "high tech" farms. I wouldn't say "modern farms are very high tech operations", I'd say "high tech industrial players…
> What your talking about is something completely different. I wonder if farmers felt the same way when tractors first started coming onto the scene replacing ox/horses and a plow, or combines, or grain carts, or seed drills, or... Did you grow up using any of that at-the-time "high tech" equipment? It was high tech at some point, now just common tech. At what point is something considered "high tech?" If you were bo…
The farmer would have slammed the door, and fed his horses.
Re: Bugs allowed hackers to dox John Deere tractor owners
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
We need a new word for these high tech massive farming operations. I come from the Canadian farming sector. Most of the farmers here are individuals, or medium sized family operations. Even the big farms aren't "high tech". There just a lot of guys and a bunch of leased machines. We have essentially 0 "high tech" farms. I wouldn't say "modern farms are very high tech operations", I'd say "high tech industrial players…
I'm curious to know what your standards for high tech are. I know that there are many farms in southern alberta who regularly get the latest farming equipment which includes john deere's that drive themselves. Hell, Lethbridge is home to at least one successful agtech biz, if not more. They're flying drones to analyze weed cover and optimize spraying based on positional data. It can be very high tech. I don't know wh…
I think OP might mean that these "high tech farms" are less like farms and more like movie studios. The tractor makers and the bank are acting like a movie studio. The are running a production in a certain area, with certain high tech equipment, with certain subleases on land for a certain number of years. There is no one driving vision and keeping the flame of what high tech should be. It's more like, "let's get this soy to market in the new way that is 7% cheaper before the other team does." Just a guess on what OP means
Re: Bugs allowed hackers to dox John Deere tractor owners
#55Having worked on a John Deere integration for an agtech company I can't say I'm surprised. The MyJohnDeere API had a lot of idiosyncrasies that smelled like inexperienced or mismanaged development, especially around authentication/authorization. At the time I was working on it they had some extremely arcane authentication process that required round-trip emails, various link clicking and code entering, and all kinds…
* John Deere didn't hire anyone for a Software Engineering job unless they were a licensed engineer, at least in the area that I worked in. This meant a lot of EE and CE majors were writing the software and they pretty much all viewed software dev as "a foot in the door" to do the hardware work to which they aspired. This may not have been true across the company (perhaps only in the area that I worked in) and it may not be true today.
* This also manifest in a culture that was utterly divorced from the rest of the software industry. They're just moving from subversion to git, much of their "CI/CD pipeline" was built with windows .bat scripts and code generation via excel files that take hours to run (I shit thee not). They build pretty much everything in-house from hardware to embedded operating systems, and their embedded codebases are littered with #ifdefs to conditionally compile different code snippets based on the specific model of tractor/comine/sprayer/etc and feature set that it is to be loaded onto. It's hard to put into writing how difficult this is to maintain.
* They build everything in-house, but it's a big company and people just email around binaries for various development tools with no way to find the source code or even the author except to ask around. Submitting a patch to a dev tool is an enormous effort. Word is they're moving to GitHub, and I think it's going to be a game changer for developers.
* Other than that, there's a long tail of other problems. IT seems to have management paranoid that if developers are too productive the hackers will steal their IP and the company will go under or something. So getting a server provisioned is a months-long affair and teams will occasionally just run a Jenkins server from a former coworker's desktop that IT forgot to pick up. There's a culture of "don't try to improve things that aren't immediately in your purview". They routinely pick tools that are abysmal to work with--I don't mean "everyone has different preferences", I mean "they bought SharePoint and made everyone use it, but didn't pay for the SharePoint consultants who program the software to be actually usable within an organization (I'm generously assuming that it's possible to make SharePoint usable--I'm not sure this is the case).
All of that said, John Deere has some really cool problems that would be really fun to work on if not for all of their organizational issues. They had self driving tech years before anyone else, they have a vast array of vehicles that run these distributed networks of embedded controllers, they make their own hardware and software (which could be a lot of fun to work on if managed properly), they aspire to use ag data to improve yields and have a credible path forward (as opposed to the "step 1: use big data, step 2: profit!" sense). Additionally, I think they probably are innovative and well-run in many non-software respects, but I'm not qualified to comment.
Similarly, for all of its issues (including hostility toward folks who want to repair their vehicles), I really want them to turn a corner and succeed because agtech is really cool and they're an American Icon with a (increasingly tarnished) reputation for quality, innovation, and providing quality jobs. I wish them the best and maybe one day I'll apply and try and help from within.
Re: Bugs allowed hackers to dox John Deere tractor owners
#56> Sick Codes said he could iterate and brute force all VIN numbers in the database, as they were "sequential," according to him Seems like they didn't think that people would enter someone else's VIN. A few years back I discovered that I could get activation code for a map update in my car simply by entering my VIN and the product number of the DVDs with the map update. They gave me a list to choose from when I enter…
The difference is that these are usually an extremely basic (and ultimately pointless) authentication test, not a way to download PII.
Re: Bugs allowed hackers to dox John Deere tractor owners
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Foundries were a thing, but even those are giving way to factories, right? I mean, someone will always make stock, but fewer companies melt metal these days, or at the very least relative to those that carve it up or weld it together (which may or may not involve a little melting, given spin welding and other techniques).
Foundries and forges are different things. A forge is closer to what you would call a manufacturing factory: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging A foundry smelts. But it is also technically a factory for input material. In the same way a sawmill is a factory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundry
From a pre-industrial blacksmith's perspective, the bigger distinction might be between a "factory" and a "shop". The processes involved are effectively the same; the difference is the scale/flexibility tradeoff (a shop can make different things every day without added overhead, where a "factory" gains enormous efficiency by being configured to do a single process).
Re: Bugs allowed hackers to dox John Deere tractor owners
#58Now every litigious John Deere owner will also have a Case.
Re: Bugs allowed hackers to dox John Deere tractor owners
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What your talking about is something completely different. I wonder if farmers felt the same way when tractors first started coming onto the scene replacing ox/horses and a plow, or combines, or grain carts, or seed drills, or... Did you grow up using any of that at-the-time "high tech" equipment? It was high tech at some point, now just common tech. At what point is something considered "high tech?" If you were bo…
If a John Deere salesman knocked on that screen door 80 years ago and said, "Mr. Farmer I have something that will make your life easier. The only drawback is when it breaks down, you can't buy parts, can't see repair documatation, and only pricy factory workers whom live far away will be able to repair the machine at set rates. The farmer would have slammed the door, and fed his horses.
mostly, though, the nature of labor has completely and utterly changed in 80 years and comparing the two is like apples and oranges.
Re: Bugs allowed hackers to dox John Deere tractor owners
#60Having worked on a John Deere integration for an agtech company I can't say I'm surprised. The MyJohnDeere API had a lot of idiosyncrasies that smelled like inexperienced or mismanaged development, especially around authentication/authorization. At the time I was working on it they had some extremely arcane authentication process that required round-trip emails, various link clicking and code entering, and all kinds…