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UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

theguardian.com

131–140 of 291 posts

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#131

Presumably to put someone in prison for being a money thief, one would need to prove where that money went... Were all these people accused of theft with not a single record of the yachts they bought with all the money they supposedly stole? I would assume most of these people would be able to turn over a complete financial record of their lives (ie. I was paid £x, I paid taxes of £y, and here is a bank statement sho…

Post Offices handle a large amount of cash, much more than any other business of their size. Many of the sub-post offices in question would be paying out pensions and welfare benefits in cash to a large proportion of local customers. If someone was stealing from the post office, they could easily do so in cash.

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#132
post #58
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The percentage isn't the problem. The problem is of the settlement amount doesn't include damages and also legal fees, both of which should be the responsibility of the perpetrators.

"The percentage isn't the problem" I disagree. Even the ambulance chasers here in the U.S. take around 40% as their contingency fee. 80% is just...wow. Edit: "ambulance chasers" in this context means very opportunistic lawyers that are primarily motivated by money, and not helping their clients. I don't see how that term is disparaging any victims/clients. The comparison is that even outright greedy lawyers aren't ta…

It was an extremely complex case which was very hard to prove, against companies which belong to the establishment and had been shown the benefit of the doubt by the legal system on multiple occasions.

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think we take software reliability seriously enough, most of our focus is on speed of release, ever quicker cycles and it being OK to break things. This culture ruined these peoples lives. Things must change. This isn't a unique issue to Fujitsu it is something most of the software industry is doing, this story could be about just about any piece of software. Damn straight. I'm really big on software Qualit…

Actually there's a huge amount of self policing. Engineers are the ones at the forefront of inventing and tooling more ways to test.

Yes, and no.

We have some marvelous CI/D tools at hand, but the execs are the ones that push to release before ripe, and they won't let things like auto-test failures get in the way of MVP.

There was a comment here, some time ago, that was made by someone that proclaimed themselves to have started and successfully exited a number of companies. It went something like "If you do not get physically sick, looking at the code in your MVP, you are spending too much time, worried about code quality."

I think that's a pretty good summary of today's startup zeitgeist.

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#134

Those postmasters defending charges of theft against them in the 2000s should not have had to prove that the computer system they were forced to use had bugs. In order to prosecute them in the first place, the Post Office should have had to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt and without risk of bias, that the computer system was correct. So, independent review at the very least, not testimony from parties with a veste…

[deleted]

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#135
post #43

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses... >For the first 10 years of Horizon’s existence, transaction and account data was stored on terminals in each branch before being uploaded to a central database via ISDN. Our source says this part of the system simply did not work. >“The cash account was a piece of software that sat on the counter NT box, asleep all day,” he said. “At the end of the day,…

I think a lot of "normal" people like the idea of holding corporates accountable but how would that actually work? The CEO blames one of their directors; the Director blames the supplier; the supplier blames the requirements documentation; the Business Analysts blame the culture for creating confusing and conflicting requirements. Yes, you can hold the organisation accountable but then the people who worked there bac…

At some (or perhaps more than one) point there was someone who was responsible for ensuring that the system put in place complied with requirements and that it was functioning as intended. They didn't do their job. They can point their finger any which way, but that won't absolve them of dereliction of duty.

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#136
The first bizarre part to me about this fiasco is that accounting, as a discipline, is one that is designed to catch errors. Put it another way: it assumes errors will occur. This is why in shops, for example, you'll have manual stocktaking (ie let's verify what's in the store is what the computer thinks is in the store) and in any business you'll have reconciliation processes to find and remedy errors.

This highlights a key part of systems design. A key question you should be asking is: what happens when this fails? Note that's "when" not "if".

So something like Horizon should be used to flag cases for reviews. If a branch is found ot have a cash shortfall suggesting possible theft then there has to be a reconciliation possible to identify if the computer system was wrong.

Bugs happen too. How do they ever have confidence in the system and fix bugs if they can't determine if a given flag is a false or true positive?

But instead the system's output was taken as gospel with no possibility of verification. I'm of the belief that if you can't verify anything the system outputs, particularly for something in a discipline so used to verification as a concept, then that signal is worthless. The fact that convictions happened as a result of this is a crime. This is the UK and not the US so sadly that compensation will probably be limited to nonexistent.

As an aside, this is exactly why electronic voting should be outlawed. You need paper ballots (that can be counted electronically) as a verification measure. And the fact that we even have to debate that makes me sad.

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#137
post #43

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252496560/Fujitsu-bosses... >For the first 10 years of Horizon’s existence, transaction and account data was stored on terminals in each branch before being uploaded to a central database via ISDN. Our source says this part of the system simply did not work. >“The cash account was a piece of software that sat on the counter NT box, asleep all day,” he said. “At the end of the day,…

I think a lot of "normal" people like the idea of holding corporates accountable but how would that actually work? The CEO blames one of their directors; the Director blames the supplier; the supplier blames the requirements documentation; the Business Analysts blame the culture for creating confusing and conflicting requirements. Yes, you can hold the organisation accountable but then the people who worked there bac…

Apply the same criminal liability that applies to boards, CFOs and CEOs for financial statements for all other statements?

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#138

Those postmasters defending charges of theft against them in the 2000s should not have had to prove that the computer system they were forced to use had bugs. In order to prosecute them in the first place, the Post Office should have had to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt and without risk of bias, that the computer system was correct. So, independent review at the very least, not testimony from parties with a veste…

As the post office is such an old organisation (350 years), it used to have its own armed guard, has its own investigations branch and conducts its own prosecutions. The police wouldn't get involved because the post office was considered to have jurisdiction. Taken from this, which is a great listen: https://soundcloud.com/privateeyenews/page-94-the-private-ey...

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the kind of bullshit BT and OpenReach pull too. Claim to be two unrelated companies and yet one owns parts of the other and the same boards run both - all so they can pass customer problems between the two I definitely.

I'm honestly surprised anyone complains about that split - it was introduced specifically so that BT wouldn't control the entire telecom infrastructure in this country, and OpenReach was formed to provide equal access to all operators - BT being only one of them. This is an extremely good solution to what used to be a massive inequality problem previously. So no, BT and Openreach aren't split for some bullshit reason…

It would be an extremely good solution if it worked as intended. In fact Openreach were not fully independent from BT for most of their existence, and they operated the network in a way which was extremely favorable to BT for a long time.

Thus, the two companies extracted an exorbitant rent for the formerly public goods they controlled. The fact that some of this rent went to inefficiencies of running two separate companies on an illusionary arm's length basis does not really improve matters.

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#140

Software is in the walls. At some point legislators are going to come and ask the question how we stop things like this happening and if the Fujitsu's of the world don't have an answer then we can expect regulation that will likely embed practices that don't help. I don't think we take software reliability seriously enough, most of our focus is on speed of release, ever quicker cycles and it being OK to break things.…

> I don't think we take software reliability seriously enough, most of our focus is on speed of release, ever quicker cycles and it being OK to break things. This culture ruined these peoples lives. Things must change. This isn't a unique issue to Fujitsu it is something most of the software industry is doing, this story could be about just about any piece of software. Damn straight. I'm really big on software Qualit…

as a QA Tester THIS IS VERY TRUE

agile is a terrible way of working

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