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UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

theguardian.com

51–60 of 291 posts

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#51

This is unreal. Shitty software sending people to prison without anyone in the process considering what exactly is the likelihood of hundreds of postmasters simultaneously becoming thieves overnight.

Yeah, this is the part I'm having trouble understanding. A few people, sure. But all these postal workers committing fraud, with many insisting there must be something wrong with the software? How did this not get discovered before they were all convicted and sentenced? And according to the article, the full number may actually be something like 900 people . >Campaigners believe that as many as 900 operators, often k…

The judgement from TFA is available here: https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/hamilton-others-v-post-of...

It pains a very bad picture of the Post Office, including:

- an expert witness from Fujitsu, who developed the system, "had been aware of at least two bugs which had affected Horizon Online[...], but had failed to say anything about them or about any Horizon issues in his statements";

- POL arranged a number of conference calls to discuss problems with the system; "instruction was then given that those emails and minutes should be, and have been, destroyed";

- "there was a culture, amongst at least some in positions of responsibility within POL, of seeking to avoid legal obligations when fulfilment of those obligations would be inconvenient and/or costly"

Further, once a number of convictions had been secured, the Post Office then used those convictions in later trials as evidence that the Horizon system was robust and reliable.

All in all, a prima facie criminal conspiracy by the Post Office.

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#52
post #49

The link out to another story[1] has some interesting details... "In December 2019, at the end of a long-running series of civil cases, the Post Office agreed to settle with 555 claimants. " So settlements in 555 of the original 700+ prosecutions. "It accepted it had previously "got things wrong in [its] dealings with a number of postmasters", and agreed to pay £58m in damages. The claimants received a share of £12m,…

Since the government was in a wrong I do not understand at all why they are not ordered to compensate all legal expenses as well.

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#53
post #6

The company I work for ships hundreds of packages through RM. The RM tech I've seen is a mess. Makes me wonder what it's like behind the scenes. Just one lowlight I've come across, this comment can be found in the HTML for one of their portals:

One nitpick: Royal Mail and Post Office are two separate companies with independent boards. Royal Mail is the network and carrier, while the Post Office is the primary entry point into that network (they also offer access to a bunch of other services not related to the Royal Mail). Doesn't make your point any less valid, but wanted to call out the distinction.

One nitpick: Royal Mail and Post Office are two separate companies with independent boards.

Though as a nitpick of your nitpick, they weren't truly independent until the relevant provisions of the Postal Services Act 2011 came into effect on 1 April 2012. What we know today as the "Post Office" and "Royal Mail" had a long history before that.

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#54
post #49

The link out to another story[1] has some interesting details... "In December 2019, at the end of a long-running series of civil cases, the Post Office agreed to settle with 555 claimants. " So settlements in 555 of the original 700+ prosecutions. "It accepted it had previously "got things wrong in [its] dealings with a number of postmasters", and agreed to pay £58m in damages. The claimants received a share of £12m,…

The percentage isn't the problem. The problem is of the settlement amount doesn't include damages and also legal fees, both of which should be the responsibility of the perpetrators.

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#58
post #54
post #49

The link out to another story[1] has some interesting details... "In December 2019, at the end of a long-running series of civil cases, the Post Office agreed to settle with 555 claimants. " So settlements in 555 of the original 700+ prosecutions. "It accepted it had previously "got things wrong in [its] dealings with a number of postmasters", and agreed to pay £58m in damages. The claimants received a share of £12m,…

The percentage isn't the problem. The problem is of the settlement amount doesn't include damages and also legal fees, both of which should be the responsibility of the perpetrators.

"The percentage isn't the problem"

I disagree. Even the ambulance chasers here in the U.S. take around 40% as their contingency fee. 80% is just...wow.

Edit: "ambulance chasers" in this context means very opportunistic lawyers that are primarily motivated by money, and not helping their clients. I don't see how that term is disparaging any victims/clients. The comparison is that even outright greedy lawyers aren't taking half+ of the settlement. In this case, using £250/hr, the lawyers spent 88 lawyer years worth of time (184k hours).

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#59

Did no one ever ask where was the money? These people all had these huge short falls, why did no one go to find the cash? That's financial crimes 101

Post Office told the post masters that they were short, so many post masters made up the shortfall from their own pocket, expecting the books to eventually balance and to get repaid.

When people were unable to continue making up that shortfall this was seen as further evidence of their criminality: "they've spent the money", "they've hidden the money", and not "they never had the money".

Re: UK court clears post office staff convicted due to ‘corrupt data’

#60

Software is in the walls. At some point legislators are going to come and ask the question how we stop things like this happening and if the Fujitsu's of the world don't have an answer then we can expect regulation that will likely embed practices that don't help. I don't think we take software reliability seriously enough, most of our focus is on speed of release, ever quicker cycles and it being OK to break things.…

Throwing innocent people on jail based on lies (with bonus, corrupt government officials colluding with foreign entities) is the problem here, not software bugs.
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