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The real reason to end the death penalty

paulgraham.com

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Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#231

Post by Y_Y »

exporectomy wrote: post #122
rswail wrote: post #8

The death penalty is immoral and unethical. The state should not have the power over the life of a person. However, the problem with removing the death penalty in the US is that it will not deal with the underlying systemic racism and the misaligned incentives of police and prosecution to "get a conviction". So yes, if the death penalty is removed, there is one less barbarism. However, for those who are not on death…

> The state should not have the power over the life of a person. Then it can't do war and can't defend its existence as a state unless it's somehow a dependent state of some other state that does have power over the life of a person. Like some small Pacific island that's protected by more militarily well equipped allies.

Plenty of states don't "do war" and aren't Pacific islands.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#232

Post by klelatti »

I absolutely abhor the death penalty. I do find this reliance on a single rationale to stop the death penalty problematic though:

- For many people I suspect that there is a combination of level of proof and severity of crime that would lead them to say the risk of erroneous conviction can be ignored.

- Someone will say let's focus on improving the justice system to deal with the errors.

I'd rather the burden of justification be the other way: what does the death penalty actually achieve, with a high burden of proof (beyond reasonable doubt) that as a policy it actually benefits society as a whole.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#233

Post by Blumfid »

tompccs wrote: post #6
wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

I don't want to kill someone. I don't know if or why a person became a murderer.

It could be their upbringing which should be the responsibility of the society and clearly the society failed.

It could be a medical issue. A biological one.

It could be that the murderer did nothing wrong in their worldview.

We have to understand this as a society. We have to teach it if people don't understand it.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#234

Post by btilly »

rswail wrote: post #15
tompccs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

This "debate" has been over in all other nations that the US likes to be compared for years. It is similar to the "tough on crime" incarceration "debate" in the US, where perverse incentives and political expediency has led to the US being the highest-per-capita incarcerator in the world. Framing the death penalty debate around "innocent people get killed" will not change the partisan/class perceptions. The US crimin…

The US criminal justice system requires root-and-branch reform, starting with issues around policing, cash bail, school-to-prison pipelines, and unfair drug and "victimless" crimes.

I'd put our abusive plea bargaining system in there.

Sadly the rest of the world is moving towards that bad idea, rather than away. :-(

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#235

Post by dane-pgp »

risyachka wrote: post #101

Though I agree that in most cases death penalty should not be used, in some very specific but not rare cases - like mass shootings with dozens dead - where you have a lot of video and DNA evidence and dozens of witnesses - I just can't find a single argument against it. If I find any - I would gladly change my mind.

> If I find any - I would gladly change my mind.

Then let me offer you this question to ponder: What benefit is there to adding another tally to the body count from a mass shooting, once the perpetrator has been taken into custody?

Executing someone doesn't reduce the number of unnecessarily lost lives, it only increases it.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#236

Post by jokethrowaway »

optimalsolver wrote: post #3

Of possible interest, Texas records death row inmates last words before execution. You can read them all here: https://www.tdcj.texas.gov/death_row/dr_executed_offenders.h... My favorite is Delbert Teague, Jr. who quoted the oath of the Knights of Solamnia from Dragonlance.

This is a great read!

Simple crawling of all the statements: Promise.all([...$$('a[href$="last.html"]')].map(aa => fetch(aa.href).then(a => a.text()).then(a => a.replace(/(\n|\r|]>| )/g, '').match(/Last Statement:(.?)/)).then(a => [aa.href, a && a[1].trim()]))).then(a => console.log(JSON.stringify(a)))

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#237

Post by deanCommie »

im3w1l wrote: post #230
djoldman wrote: post #179

On the subject of deterrence: If someone commits a premeditated crime carrying a guideline sentence of {20 years in State A, vs 30 years in State B} do we really think that they're more likely to commit the crime in State A? It's my intuition that for the most part, people committing crimes aren't thinking about potential repercussions, much less measuring them. I mean is someone thinking "Oh, only 10 years? I'll do…

It's my belief that the sentence length affects crime rate indirectly by affecting the collective unconscious . For instance if you see someone who did his time talk about his life in retrospect on the telly that affects you. When you see the (lack of) wrinkles on his face, that affects you. When you uncle Joey misses your birthday bash because he is still in jail, that affects you etc.

It's a sensible belief, I have it too.

It's not backed by the evidence, though.

Harsher sentences do not decrease crime rates.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#238

Post by mrlala »

beej71 wrote: post #148
wanderingstan wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see your counter argument here. The post is indeed arguing that “zero people killed by the government for crimes they did not commit” is more ok than “greater than zero people killed.” This is a valid argument, drawing on the intuition that accidentally letting a guilty person escape death (even if we accept they deserve it) is a lesser evil than letting an innocent person die.

A number of people I've talked to about this feel that the false positive rate is perfectly fine. That it's just the price we pay for justice overall.

They are just fine with it until it happens to them.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#240

Post by abakker »

djoldman wrote: post #179

On the subject of deterrence: If someone commits a premeditated crime carrying a guideline sentence of {20 years in State A, vs 30 years in State B} do we really think that they're more likely to commit the crime in State A? It's my intuition that for the most part, people committing crimes aren't thinking about potential repercussions, much less measuring them. I mean is someone thinking "Oh, only 10 years? I'll do…

I think most people who commit crimes do not believe they will be caught. Most data shows sentencing shows no deterrence. Alternatively sometimes fines do more to deter than other penalties. A theory I remember from a college class on the topic were that sentences are so unevenly applied that many people reason that they won't actually get the max sentence.
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