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The real reason to end the death penalty

paulgraham.com

121–130 of 546 posts

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#121

This argument is garbage. Of course there will be miscarriages of justice and this has been talked about since the beginning. There is nothing new here. > 4% of people on death row are innocent. This is not true, but it's irrelevant anyway since what is the acceptable level? Since it's not mentioned, we have gotten nowhere in this blog post. If we get it very close to zero, is it then ok then? Is the single incidence…

I don’t see your counter argument here.

The post is indeed arguing that “zero people killed by the government for crimes they did not commit” is more ok than “greater than zero people killed.”

This is a valid argument, drawing on the intuition that accidentally letting a guilty person escape death (even if we accept they deserve it) is a lesser evil than letting an innocent person die.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#122
post #8

The death penalty is immoral and unethical. The state should not have the power over the life of a person. However, the problem with removing the death penalty in the US is that it will not deal with the underlying systemic racism and the misaligned incentives of police and prosecution to "get a conviction". So yes, if the death penalty is removed, there is one less barbarism. However, for those who are not on death…

> The state should not have the power over the life of a person.

Then it can't do war and can't defend its existence as a state unless it's somehow a dependent state of some other state that does have power over the life of a person. Like some small Pacific island that's protected by more militarily well equipped allies.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if they did the murder because of a brain tumor messing up their impulse control ability? Humans are just complicated machines that go wrong sometimes. I do however share your emotional position and it would make me feel better to see (actual) murderers get the death penalty.

They're still a danger to society. If we start crossing into the metaphysical then we'd have to make excuses for peadophiles having 'messed up impulse control' too. But as another comment pointed out, we do account for this.

> They're still a danger to society.

That's a different argument. The OP said it he'd like muderers to have a fate similar to their victims, basically as revenge. When executing someone for this reason, their guilt clearly does matter - someone who enjoys killing is far worse than someone with a medical condition. Whether their death is 'practical' is a different matter.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#124
post #86

The thing I find distasteful is the 'sanitization' of execution. I've got some ideas on how to spice it up: Brushing away of the wrongful executions as a price of justice. Hold a monthly lottery of the population, with the random 'winner' being executed. Out of a population of millions you wouldn't even notice, but would send a message to the world that you were OK with the cost. Secondly. Repercussions for those tha…

>Hold a monthly lottery of the population, ...

The point you're making is that living in society each day is a ticket in lottery where we could be falsely accused of a crime, falsely convicted, and unjustly punished. That's horrific all around, a death penalty is a factor but not even the biggest. On the contrary, if we need a death penality to make someone like your audience care about that horror of punishing innocent people then perhaps there is a beneficial purpose? Maybe executions make people care about bad things done in their name in the name of justice?

>Police dropped evidence into your pocket? Try them for attempted murder.

Yes, naturally. Some archaic pockets of government do this, sort of! What comes to mind is a specific public officer in my state who is personally responsible by law for breaches of privacy in her office. Consequences like that focus the mind! So much so, in fact, that those consequences come to dominate the public officer's thinking. I don't disagree, but forget 'defund the police'-- you're going to need a lot more police to enforce the modern criminal code at the current level of enforcement if police are threatened with death for misplacing their notes , memories and paperwork.

>At your conviction lottery is held of the population and winner is your executioner.

Again, the result here would be that some people would be assigned an executioner who would show them mercy. This too has analogues in our modern systems. In some parts of the world the victim's family can stop an execution if they feel the victim has been adequately avenged-- not a bad result! In the US context governors-- arguably the people responsible for these killings-- can and frequently do commute sentences out of compassion or lack of clarity about the crime.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#125
Can someone explain the logic behind District Attorney's being elected? I'm not from the US so don't understand the reasoning. Why are certain crimes prosecuted based on decisions of an elected official? That just seems obviously highly manipulatable to me.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#127
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is very US-centric. Yeah, considering the US have a bunch of problems related to violence (mass shootings, overzealous police force, invading other countries left and right), it makes sense that other violent processes are also problematic in the same environment. I agree with you death penalty is merely a symptom of something else in the whole system of the country. Makes it extra weird when you consider how…

The US isn't that prudish compared to many nations.

My observation from the UK is that it's extremely polarised.

When I visited Miami for work I couldn't believe how many scantily clad people just walked around and the stories you see in media from coastal liberal areas (fictional and non-fictional) seem just as, if not more, open to sexuality as the UK (who are more prudish than Europe in general).

But in the otherhand there are large areas/groups dominated by conservative religious values who are hyper prudish.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “diminished mental capacity” As we learn more about neuroscience, every murderer will look like they have "diminished mental capacity". This legal construct is merely a statement of our ignorance to understand what's actually going on in their brain.

Sure, free will may not exist, but we don’t have much of a civilization if we don’t pretend that it does.

It might not go that bad. But I suspect that as medical imaging hardware becomes better, we'll eventually face a crisis point: we'll be forced to re-evaluate most of what we call "character traits" and reclassify them as neurochemistry quirks. This is an important distinction, because as a society, we tend to hold people responsible for their character, but not for bugs in their brain.

We can already see some of this today. Many people that would've been shunned by society in the past as "unstable" and "crazy", can be fixed by giving them lithium. We know not to fault a person for what's just a bug in their hardware. Similarly, many people that today are called "lazy" or "annoying", and blamed for their obviously flawed character, can be instantly fixed by low doses of stimulant medication. This is something most people didn't get a memo on yet.

I find it highly likely that most homicides are also driven by fixable neurochemistry quirks, and that we'll learn to identify and fix them at some point, and we'll be appalled at the ease with which we jumped to killing people for having them.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#129
post #14
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

Let's assume the "innocent people get killed" argument abolishes death penalty today. What are the second-order effects of that argument which can be detrimental to the society that you can think of?

Actually, the counter-argument is "innocent people get killed by already convincted murderer that went out of jail"...

ECONOMICS: Another counter-argument is "the society pay for the whole life of the jailed murderer, so it's a cost paid by the society for something that broke society laws"

And then another argument is "a murderer may prefer to be killed than to be kept in jail for the rest of his life".

Actually, there's a whole philosophical debate around all this: what is the role of the sanction ? Is it revenge from breaking society laws ? Is it revenge from the victim ? Can someone that broke society laws (even in murder case) be changed by the jail time and come back to the society as a good citizen or are some crimes the mark that this people are forever lost to the society ?

I'm against the death penalty. I'm french so we don't have it since 1980. And we don't really have "forever jail": it's 20 years I think and can even be shortened if prisoner show in jail that he's ready to come back to society (except if it would be a trouble for the society). As a consequence, there's from time to time a convicted criminal, out of jail after a reduced time, that kill/rape someone again. And each time, there's a public discussion about this...

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is very US-centric. Yeah, considering the US have a bunch of problems related to violence (mass shootings, overzealous police force, invading other countries left and right), it makes sense that other violent processes are also problematic in the same environment. I agree with you death penalty is merely a symptom of something else in the whole system of the country. Makes it extra weird when you consider how…

> how prude the US is when it comes to sexuality This hasn't been true for decades.

No? As far as I know, nipples are still "banned" on most US social media platforms, but only if they are female. Male nipples are fine. Then children are usually shielded from anything remotely sexual in both real-life and from media while violence seems to be fine even for the youngest.
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