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My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

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Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#301

Post by bugmenot »

sorbus wrote: post #234
rubashov wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really this naive about the landscaping business in much of the country? In a great many cases you can reliably assume people are here illegally.

I really hope that you have citations for that. Not saying that you're correct or incorrect (I have not personally gone out of my way to find landscapers and determine whether they're legal residents or not, so I obviously have no data points to contribute), but in the absence of some sources - or at the very least a few anecdotes! - it sounds like you're making sweeping generalizations about groups of people, possib…

You may not like his presentation style, but the stats bear his argument out.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#302

Post by kelnos »

rubashov wrote: post #213
kelnos wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an unemployed person loses out to an immigrant (legal or illegal), clearly there's a reason. I'd rather have jobs filled with better people than pander to people who are currently more eligible solely because they had the luck to be born in a certain place at a certain time.

Are you cool paying healthcare and education costs for the immigrant's four kids? His low hourly wage does not come close to representing his costs given a social welfare state. This is essentially what is happening as criminal employers hire criminal aliens: they externalize massive costs to the larger population.

The reason he has a depressed wage is because he's undocumented and therefore can be exploited. Reduce the friction involved and more people will be documented, and more on their way to full citizenship. Shady employers won't be able to pay less than min/market wage since the now-documented workers have legal recourse.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#303

Post by freshfunk »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #295
dennisgorelik wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth. Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.

America established immigration system in order to make it NOT fair [for immigrants]. Prior to introducing that immigration system there was no legal discrimination by country of origin. Whether there should be no concept of citizenry is a different topic outside of scope of this discussion.

How is it not fair? Because you say so? Because you disagree with the system?

Is it more fair to have a free for all where people sneak in?

It's convenient to say something is not fair as justification to break all the rules.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#304

Post by freshfunk »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #296
freshfunk wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the privilege of an H1B is "indentured servitude", it seems that immigration is not for you. I don't expect to enter a foreign country and immediately have all the same worker rights as a citizen of that country.

Could you explain why immigrants should not have equal rights with born in the US citizens?

Well 1) that is the rule of law. It's not just the case for the US but many other modern nations in this world.

2) Being a citizen doesn't just have benefits but also responsibilities. This is why we pledge allegiance.

At age 21 I had to register for the civil service. That means that if my country goes to war and I'm drafted then I must fight and possibly die for my country.

An illegal immigrant will not be drafted.

It also means other things I'm bound under federal law like paying taxes. There are also other civil duties like being on a jury to judge my fellow citizens. As a citizen, I'm bound by the laws on our constitution and those created by our legislature.

3) The privileges of a citizen allow them to contribute to the way our democracy functions including the right to vote.

An illegal immigrant cannot vote.

The rest of my argument was already stated above to you. If we completely open the borders to everyone, then our government wouldn't even be able to serve the current legal citizens.

You may dislike the system but in other countries such as Japan and Germany it is even more difficult and exclusionary. They are based on parentage and while that make more sense to you, it actually ends up leaving large classes of immigrants unnaturalized.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#305

Post by dennisgorelik »

freshfunk wrote: post #303
dennisgorelik wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America established immigration system in order to make it NOT fair [for immigrants]. Prior to introducing that immigration system there was no legal discrimination by country of origin. Whether there should be no concept of citizenry is a different topic outside of scope of this discussion.

How is it not fair? Because you say so? Because you disagree with the system? Is it more fair to have a free for all where people sneak in? It's convenient to say something is not fair as justification to break all the rules.

By default discrimination is not fair. Sometimes discrimination is justified (e.g. thieves are sent to prison because they harm society).

But what is the justification for discriminating immigrants?

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#306

Post by dennisgorelik »

freshfunk wrote: post #304
dennisgorelik wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain why immigrants should not have equal rights with born in the US citizens?

Well 1) that is the rule of law. It's not just the case for the US but many other modern nations in this world. 2) Being a citizen doesn't just have benefits but also responsibilities. This is why we pledge allegiance. At age 21 I had to register for the civil service. That means that if my country goes to war and I'm drafted then I must fight and possibly die for my country. An illegal immigrant will not be drafted.…

1) So basically your explanation goes like that: "Discrimination against immigrants is justified, because it's a law and other countries discriminate even worse than the US".

I hoped for somewhat better reasoning than that. If you take "it's a law and it must stay unchanged" principle to the heart, then you would be dead by now killed as invader by one of American-Indian tribes.

2) "Opening borders to everyone" has very little to do with "Stopping discrimination against immigrants".

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#307

Post by mahyarm »

HowardRoark wrote: post #283
nkassis wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just stay in Canada. It's a nice place to live. It's very similar to living in the US. As a programmer you could easily find a job.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/tool/tool_06.... Can programmers even apply under the skilled category anymore? I thought Canada only wanted computer managers since 2009(?).

I don't know, there might be a way to do it still for Canada. For example cooks and chefs can get a PR card o_o, it would be good for your health to take up a 1 year cooking sabbatical or something (geek out about diet and such). Australia accepts computer professionals on arrival also under the software engineer category (60 points, pretty good!) with a skills test. Australians also have a TN like arrangement with the us, but it's a dual intent visa (E-3) so it's even easier to get the green card. The waiting period although is 6 years (5 years + 1 year citizenship test & passport generation). Singapore is also extremely quick if he has the gumption to start a consulting business there, or get employment, it's possible to get PR in 6 months and singapore also has a special TN type H1B. Singapore although is a 1 passport citizenship, it's major downfall. Mexico also has the TN arrangement along with Canada as a part of NAFTA and Chile also has a TN like arrangement also. The somewhat open secret with these TN visas is that even if they are not dual intent, if your willing to stay in the country until green card and renew inside until you have it you can still successfully for permanent residence. You can also apply directly outside of the USA for permanent residence under the EB-* visas. You'll be waiting years and have to have a really really nice employer/friends who's willing to wait that long. There are also the dual intent L-1A, L-1B visas. There are options for immigrating to the USA, even if it might take 20 years in the end...

http://canberra.usembassy.gov/e3visa/qualifying.html http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-migration/175... http://www.guidemesingapore.com/relocation/pr/singapore-perm...

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#309

Post by yarek »

gdilla wrote: post #183

Go wait in line, Vargas. You ain't special. You think because we should feel sorry for you, that you deserve a greencard or legalization or whatever? Do you know the shit LEGAL immigrants have to go through to get and stay here? What makes you so damn special to skip the fucking line? I waited 7 fucking years for my greencard - all the while working and paying more taxes than you and any goddamn teabagger alive. I wa…

I'm so very sorry to hear this story. It reminds me of another one about Indian engineers looking for brides back home - I heard on NPR a few years back. It was heart breaking to hear that the order of preference for the potential brides was citizen, h1b applying for green card, green card holders. You see, if you are on h1b your spouse can stay with you (but cannot work), and if you get a green card while already married, she gets one too. But, if you already have a green card, you are in worst possible case from family point of view, as explained above. It really, really sucks.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#310

Post by wnight »

freshfunk wrote: post #304
dennisgorelik wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain why immigrants should not have equal rights with born in the US citizens?

Well 1) that is the rule of law. It's not just the case for the US but many other modern nations in this world. 2) Being a citizen doesn't just have benefits but also responsibilities. This is why we pledge allegiance. At age 21 I had to register for the civil service. That means that if my country goes to war and I'm drafted then I must fight and possibly die for my country. An illegal immigrant will not be drafted.…

> That means that if my country goes to war and I'm drafted then I must fight and possibly die for my country.

Societies that raise slave armies aren't free.

Or, did I miss where you'd be able to abstain if, for instance, you knew the whole thing was a farce?

> Being a citizen doesn't just have benefits but also responsibilities.

And consequences. If you're a US taxpayer (one of about 200M) you've recently paid for the killing of about 1/100th of someone, likely a non-combatant.

Not to count (of course) those your country's policies have merely displaced, such as many of the poor in Mexico, victims of "Free Trade" and the like.

Darned illegals.

> If we completely open the borders to everyone, then our government wouldn't even be able to serve the current legal citizens.

Cite needed.

The USA can manufacture and deliver a bomb for every man, woman, and child in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc, and you don't think it could provide basic food and medical instead?

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