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My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

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Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#291

Post by haberman »

coryl wrote: post #250
lionhearted wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey Coryl, I'm enjoying this discussion between you two and I think you both make excellent points and I'm learning from the discussion. But this out of bounds - > has to be explicitly stated by you shows (to me) a form of malice, spite, arrogance, and a complex of superiority. You really ought not personally insult the guy you're discussing with... it doesn't help the discussion at all. Really uncalled for, haberman…

Thanks. They weren't intended to be insults for insults sake, but reflect how I see, as what I believe to be, his perspective of immigrants as criminals. To say something like "immigrant children broke the law, but since they're kids, we should be lenient when we consider punishing them", carries a pass of judgement that I perceive to be as a statement on whom is more righteous or more privileged. I don't feel like a…

> To say something like "immigrant children broke the law, but since they're kids, we should be lenient when we consider punishing them", carries a pass of judgement that I perceive to be as a statement on whom is more righteous or more privileged.

If you came home and a homeless person was sleeping in your bed, would you consider it an intolerable passing of judgement to say they shouldn't have done that and you will be "deporting" them out of your house?

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#292

Post by freshfunk »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #205
freshfunk wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're framing the argument in a way that makes your position stronger and his weaker. But, in your framing, I think you miss some basic points. For me, it comes down to what he said here: >Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. The thing is that everyone…

Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth. Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.

Again, you're just reframing the argument in order to make it convenient for yourself.

I understand your position and, philosophically, it's an interesting one to take. But if you take your position to the extreme then there should be NO concept of citizenry.

It's all fine and dandy as a theoretical concept but has no bearing (or utility) on the real world. In the world, we are citizens of nations and citizenship is defined by laws. In the US, that citizenship can be given through birth.

Is that fair? Maybe not. But life's not fair. America has established a legal immigration system in order to (try to) make it fair. Simply ignoring that whole system and questioning the basic order of things seems like just an excuse to cut in line.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#293

Post by freshfunk »

jacobolus wrote: post #248
freshfunk wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story was a moving one and I hope Vargas gets to stay. With that said, I think illegal immigration creates all kinds of societal problems and is unfair to legal immigrants. The problem it creates is that there's enormous stress on those that are illegal. They live in the shadows and can be taken advantage of. My own personal experience was driving in LA and being rear-ended by someone who then fled the scene (mos…

The problem with your “cutting in line is bad” line is that people’s choice to immigrate without papers has almost nothing to do with “lines” or policies or lawbreaking, and everything to do with the much more powerfully compelling economic organization of the world (and particularly North America). 1) United States agriculture absolutely depends on a certain amount of unskilled labor to function, for which the Unite…

I sympathize but, ultimately, do not find your argument compelling.

Mexico isn't the only poor country in the world. They just happen to be the one that's closest to the US. When my parents legally immigrated here, South Korea was a poor nation. Look at the history of US immigration and you'll see that this is a pattern (eg. Irish and Italians in the 1900s to modern day immigrants from Africa and Asia).

I'm from LA so I'm well aware of the economic contributions of the Mexican illegal immigrants.

With that said, I don't necessarily agree with your positions. Due to the massive rate of illegal immigration, agriculture has been able to thrive on low cost economics. If they didn't have that labor, it doesn't mean the US would shut down. What it would mean is that the US would have to adjust the economics in order to make it viable. This could result in the following:

a) A much larger legal guest worker program. b) Importing more agriculture from countries like Mexico. c) Higher wages for legal farm workers (including legal residents of Mexican origin).

In all 3 of these cases, it would lead to be a better situation for Mexican-Americans or Mexico. In the case of b), it would help the economics of Mexico.

I sympathize that Mexico is a poor country. Like I said before, there are many poor countries in this world. I don't want to sound callous but I don't understand how this is specifically the responsibility of the US. We don't even have a nationalized health system.

Also, allowing illegal immigration does not help Mexico in the long term. It won't fix their lack of economy and unemployment problems. Saying there are "physically too many people" is an excuse IMO. Every country battles the problem of unemployment.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#294

Post by freshfunk »

ido wrote: post #245
freshfunk wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story was a moving one and I hope Vargas gets to stay. With that said, I think illegal immigration creates all kinds of societal problems and is unfair to legal immigrants. The problem it creates is that there's enormous stress on those that are illegal. They live in the shadows and can be taken advantage of. My own personal experience was driving in LA and being rear-ended by someone who then fled the scene (mos…

There is a legal system and many people every year try to go through that system like my parents did. I see illegal immigrants as "cutting in line" and I see nothing fair about it. The problem is that if you are not a student there is basically no way to legally immigrate except: 1. Marrying an american 2. Indentured servitude via H1-B (hard to get, and if you leave your job/get fired you have to find a new job in tw…

If you think the privilege of an H1B is "indentured servitude", it seems that immigration is not for you. I don't expect to enter a foreign country and immediately have all the same worker rights as a citizen of that country.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#295

Post by dennisgorelik »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #205
freshfunk wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're framing the argument in a way that makes your position stronger and his weaker. But, in your framing, I think you miss some basic points. For me, it comes down to what he said here: >Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. The thing is that everyone…

Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth. Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.

America established immigration system in order to make it NOT fair [for immigrants].

Prior to introducing that immigration system there was no legal discrimination by country of origin.

Whether there should be no concept of citizenry is a different topic outside of scope of this discussion.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#296

Post by dennisgorelik »

freshfunk wrote: post #294
ido wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a legal system and many people every year try to go through that system like my parents did. I see illegal immigrants as "cutting in line" and I see nothing fair about it. The problem is that if you are not a student there is basically no way to legally immigrate except: 1. Marrying an american 2. Indentured servitude via H1-B (hard to get, and if you leave your job/get fired you have to find a new job in tw…

If you think the privilege of an H1B is "indentured servitude", it seems that immigration is not for you. I don't expect to enter a foreign country and immediately have all the same worker rights as a citizen of that country.

Could you explain why immigrants should not have equal rights with born in the US citizens?

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#297

Post by InclinedPlane »

haberman wrote: post #223
InclinedPlane wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can have compassion for both. More importantly, we shouldn't restrict our policy decisions based on avoiding making people upset.

> More importantly, we shouldn't restrict our policy decisions based on avoiding making people upset. I think that's a fair point. A more important argument is that making the system too lenient towards people who have come here illegally creates the wrong incentives.

Perhaps. But that also shouldn't stop us from making the system better and more sane. Today the system is ridiculous and laden with vestiges of waves of anti-immigrant sentiment in the past. It needs to become sane, and if that means cutting a few corners then I think that's better than continuing to perpetuate injustice and ridiculous laws that don't uphold the ideals of our country.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#299

Post by rdl »

yardie wrote: post #251
rdl wrote: post #232

In this case, the minimum patch to fix his situation (and that of those very similar to him) is probably to remove the 10 year ban requirement. Let him leave, reapply immediately as an O-1, etc., without prejudice, based on having come here as a minor, and/or having graduated from a US university. While I'd like to see comprehensive immigration reform, I am always afraid of the perfect being the enemy of the good. Th…

Can't he already do this? I've heard of quite a few speakers and musicians that were technically banned, Nelson Mandela comes to mind, but had so much overwhelming support from businesses and congress that ICE had no option but to overturn it. He's got a Pulitzer and a few bestselling books, I'm sure he can spin that into a proper visa.

Yeah, I think you can always get a waiver.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#300

Post by akat »

gdilla wrote: post #183

Go wait in line, Vargas. You ain't special. You think because we should feel sorry for you, that you deserve a greencard or legalization or whatever? Do you know the shit LEGAL immigrants have to go through to get and stay here? What makes you so damn special to skip the fucking line? I waited 7 fucking years for my greencard - all the while working and paying more taxes than you and any goddamn teabagger alive. I wa…

Downvote me, delete my account if you wish, but +1000000
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