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How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

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Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously there are tons of people who want to do this. But the difference I think is that fewer people feel the need or expectation to aggregate wealth over their career. Another angle I didn’t think of is the work-hard-retire-early mindset which of course means that a) you work hard and expect high comp for it b) if you do long hours and have little holiday, you have a higher interest in retiring early, which requi…

> But the difference I think is that fewer people feel the need or expectation to aggregate wealth over their career. German savings rates are 50% higher than America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gross_nat...

Germans are probably more successful at saving! I do think though that if you asked “is it important to have a well paying job” or “important to retire rich” I think more would agree in the US (although few would succeed). I don’t have any numbers for this hypothetical interview question though.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#182

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

Money is not the only important thing in life.

It's not, but I (as the parent has pointed out) find it astounding that salaries are so low compared to the US. Not necessarily because of absolute value of the salary, but because of the relative value to the biz people work in.

AFAIK, SaaS companies aren't charging demonstrably less for their applications in the EU than they are in the US. So the ratio from development to commercial value in the EU is significantly higher.

In other words, management/founders/investments/equity holders should be far more profitable in the EU and its to the detriment of the individual engineer. Income inequality is therefore in theory more exacerbated.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only problem with your comparison (and I'm not saying devs don't make less money in EU) is that you can't just convert one currency to the other. You have to compare purchasing power and quality of life. The same salary in US could be viewed as 'you are rich' or 'you can't pay rent' depending on with city you live in. Now, you are talking about different continents. I would compare the possible lifestyles and qua…

I've made this point many many times on this site, but if you make 150k in san Francisco, and pay 4k a month on rent, you have more left over after rent and tax than a mid level developer in europe makes as a gross salary.

If you can only make 150K in San Francisco, you'd be better off moving to a MCOL or LCOL US city where you can make nearly that much and have no trouble paying rent. It's only worth working in San Francisco if you're making 200K+ and think you have a good shot at making 300-500K in ~5 years or so (or if you're already making >300K, obviously).

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#184

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

The only problem with your comparison (and I'm not saying devs don't make less money in EU) is that you can't just convert one currency to the other. You have to compare purchasing power and quality of life. The same salary in US could be viewed as 'you are rich' or 'you can't pay rent' depending on with city you live in. Now, you are talking about different continents. I would compare the possible lifestyles and qua…

Fair point, quality of life has a lot of non-fungible aspects (and I saw this as someone who has lived in 5 metro areas and 3 continents over the last 15 years), however the difference does not all get eaten by cost of living, especially if you stay disciplined. A single reasonably strong SDE you can pretty easily be making $250k, even after exorbitant bay area rents you can still save/invest 1-2x your total equivalent EU salary. Even just coming and living a frugal lifestyle for 5-10 years can be life changing.

That said, with the rise of big tech satellite offices and remote work, there is definitely a path to €150k+ total comp without leaving the EU, and over time this should put upward pressure on salaries across the board (London is ahead of the curve here).

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#185

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

1) In Europe you don't get unexpected medical bills for tens/hundreds thousands of dollars when you have some medical issue.

2) Your kids won't get shot in the school.

3) You don't have to drive 20 minutes to the closest store to buy bread and milk.

4) I have 35d of paid vacation, while AFAICT in US you're lucky if you get 20. I'd get a brain melt or die from overworking if I had any less vacation days than now.

I've never been to US so I overly generalize and cherrypick based on what I've read, but I think what I wrote above will ring bell to many others.

Apart from that, other issues like: being close to family etc.

I could imagine going to US for a few years and get $$$ and get back, but overall, US does not seem to me like an American dream from the 90s anymore.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#186

> To sum up: if you are single and opt for "live cool and don't care about expenses" style, then an average developer salary will be enough (it might be harder if you have a family to feed). > On the other hand, if you choose to go the student-like route (living in Wohngemeinschaft and not eating out too much), you can easily manage with just 1.200-1.500 EUR per month, and save the majority of your salary. I know it…

And let's not forget that in Germany, one has to add around 15% on top of the house price: taxes, notary and - almost always - the real estate agent cut.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Price/sq meter varies between 100-2000€, so it really depends on your region, lifestyle and choices. If you have a normal salary (or both working) you can afford a small house. Mortgages also tend to be reasonable in Germany.

A flat in a horrible region of Regensburg (a very nice and very old Roman town in Bavaria) right beneath the rail tracks costs 5000-6000€/m2 (they will have nice interior though). And Regensburg is not even a high income city for software engineers in Germany. If you do not inherit a good amount of money or earn incredible well (like >100.000€) you will forever be a "poor" man in Germany or you can sell your soul for…

> Taxes are just too high and income too low...

This. I'm a freelance here in Berlin and I pay 950 Euro/month for the (public) health insurance. The insurance covers only myself, while my kids are covered by my wife's health insurance, which is another 800 Euro/month (half covered by the employer).

Note that before moving to Germany I was living in Switzerland, where I had a private insurance that was WAY cheaper that the German public one and had all sort of perks.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#188

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

The only problem with your comparison (and I'm not saying devs don't make less money in EU) is that you can't just convert one currency to the other. You have to compare purchasing power and quality of life. The same salary in US could be viewed as 'you are rich' or 'you can't pay rent' depending on with city you live in. Now, you are talking about different continents. I would compare the possible lifestyles and qua…

> The same salary in US could be viewed as 'you are rich' or 'you can't pay rent' depending on with city you live in. Now, you are talking about different continents.

"You can't make rent"/"You can't buy a house with a reasonable commute" an a software dev salary is almost entirely a California and NYC-area phenomenon.

A "typical" software developer (even a junior) could afford a decent house within a reasonable commute in ~7 of the top 10 metro areas in the US (Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Philadelphia, Atlanta). In the remaining 3 (NYC, LA, DC), you'd probably end up with an unpleasantly long commute, although plenty of people make that choice. If you go further down the list of metros, the ratio is similar.

> How long does it take to buy a house/apartment?

In any of the metro areas mentioned above, you should be able to buy a house on a software dev salary as soon as you've save a 5-10% down payment (so $25-50k for a $500k house, more if you want something bigger/in a nicer area). The difference in salaries vs. Europe would typically allow you to save that within a couple years.

> Can you afford to travel on vacation?

Unambiguous yes - you can afford the monetary cost of a vacation on a software dev salary. Families in much less lucrative fields than software still take vacations.

Paid time off is trickier - European norms are for employers to provide much higher amounts of PTO for all employees, while most American firms are much stingier with it. This is something to explicitly shop around for and use as a decision criteria in a job hunt. There are definitely large American firms that provide 20-25 PTO days standard for new employees.

> Can you save money for your kids' college (or do you even need to do that)?

Annual tuition & mandatory fees at the flagship state university in the median state is ~$12k, so ~$48k for a 4-year degree. This excludes living costs, but you have to pay living costs at European universities as well. If returns on your college investments keep pace with tuition increases (many states have programs that can explicitly guarantee this), then you can pay tuition after 18 years by saving $2700/year per child.

You didn't mention healthcare, which often comes up, but software devs working as full-time employees will typically have good health insurance available through work, so that's not a problem in practice either.

There are tons of reasons to prefer Europe vs. the US (culture, a preference for dense living, lower-pressure work environments, more paid time off, etc.) but overall buying power isn't really one of them. Your salary will buy you more "stuff" (housing, cars, vacations, savings, etc.) in the US, unless you choose to live in one of the highest-cost regions of the country without a correspondingly high salary.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to that: Taxes are not 50%, but there are mandatory social insurances you have to pay: Health insurance (+elderly care insurance), unemployment, pension system. They make up the biggest chunk for low to medium sized incomes. Your employer also pays into these insurances for you, which does not show up on your job-offer. So effectively you get 20% more than advertised.

It's a total of about 50% in social security contributions AND taxes. Assuming you are single and have no kids and your gross salary is 100k, you pay about 15k in social security contributions and 29k in income tax. And additionally 2.5k in church tax if you're catholic or lutheran.

thats roundabout 45% but yeah. Actually high earners pay less taxes than those stuck in the middle (like 40k to 60k) because after a certain threshold (i think around 60k) your contributions to health care (which is until then around 15% of your income) don't rise anymore (unless you have a very expensive private health care plan but thats on you ;)).

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#190
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that work tax wise? Does the California company have an office in germany? If so, do they still pay the same salary as in california?

Oh, I'm self-employed.

I am very interested: What is your hourly/daily/weekly rate? Do you have one long-term client in the US or multiples?
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