How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#171

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

estaseuropano wrote: post #54

dcolkitt wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation is. Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make? I understand the demand side. I think the European tech industry is much less successful than its American counterpart, and therefore has less money to pay. But I don'…

You also have 38h/weeks, 20+ holiday days per year, actual free weekends, many free public services, affordable healthcare with fair insurance that doesn't try to bankrupt you, ... So it balances out. How much do you have to save per month for that 200k health emergency in the US? In Germany - 0€. If you want to get rich either be a founder or go to the US for a chance at that. If you want a good and happy life with…

[deleted]

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#172

Post by _petronius » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #140

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

As someone who grew up in the US, and works as a software engineer in Europe, I can't understand why anyone would ever choose to work as a developer in America. :)

I have a very high quality of life here, strong protections as a permanent employee (increasingly less common in other industries in Germany, but not in tech!), a salary that is excellent compared to many of my peers, and comes with a purchasing power that I imagine meets or exceeds someone in my same position in New York or the Bay Area.

I won't pretend there aren't downsides (for example, stock as compensation is rare here, and not incentivised by the legal situation), but for me the upsides win over raw actuarial comparisons. I'd much rather have my compensation in Berlin than trade it for 2x or even 4x that in the US.

(Edit to add: once you bring rent, medical insurance and associated out-of-pocket costs, and paid time off into the picture, compensation in the US starts to look like a pretty raw deal IMO.)

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#173

Post by alkonaut » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

jgwil2 wrote: post #163

alkonaut wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Savings is for a down payment. Then you pay mortgages on the house and any savings are much better to keep (retirement, buffer, ..). If I were to save to buy my house (€800K) I'd certainly not be living in it before the kids move out, at which point I no longer need a house. The price of a house on the market has a pretty simple formula: it's what two incomes can pay per month times the interest rate they expect over…

But you can't live in your stocks.

Exactly. So you live in the house. The question is whether a €1k should be saved or invested or paid towards the house so you leave it (after say 10-20 years) with 50% loans instead of 70%?

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#174

Post by levital » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:13 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #131

lbrito wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.

1- By living with roommates and renting a room (sometimes half a room). 2- By taking painfully long commutes to cheaper locations. 3- By living with parents/partner. This is not an option for most people, but probably what makes moving to a job a difficult situation. > what kind of people are able to afford a house? Apparently, half of Germany can't afford a home. - https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-own…

Mind, the ownership statistics may not be fully reflective of the ability to afford a home in Germany. There's a long rental tradition in Germany with strong tenants rights.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#175

Post by _petronius » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

eloeffler wrote: post #9

I'm surprised the article says nothing about certifications and or degrees, only work experience. I don't work in Software Engineering but I would have assumed that - like anywhere else in Germany - a university degree is required more often than abroad. Or am I wrong about that?

Honestly depends on the company -- I have no problem despite the fact that both of my degrees are in the arts, but I also work for a very international company (English is the language we work in, it has a lot of folks in it from nontraditional backgrounds).

If you apply to work for a more traditional or more "German" company, you may find that things like the subject your uni degree is in, or formal recommendations from previous employers (Zeugnisse) suddenly matter a lot more.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#176

Post by k__ » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

lucb1e wrote: post #164

k__ wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's strange. But many of my millenial friends aren't even baptized, so they don't have to pay the tax. Also, you can "leave" a church any time you want.

> you can "leave" a church any time you want. For a small fee and an in-person visit to an office "near" you! Or so I've heard (I live in Germany but have never been a church member here so I wouldn't know myself).

Yes.

This sucks especially for people living in the countryside.

But the fee isn't that much compared to what you have to pay in taxes.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#177

Post by alkonaut » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

jcbrand wrote: post #159

alkonaut wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Savings is for a down payment. Then you pay mortgages on the house and any savings are much better to keep (retirement, buffer, ..). If I were to save to buy my house (€800K) I'd certainly not be living in it before the kids move out, at which point I no longer need a house. The price of a house on the market has a pretty simple formula: it's what two incomes can pay per month times the interest rate they expect over…

If you're not paying off the principal, you're just renting from the bank without the benefit of having a landlord to fix things. Why bother?

> If you're not paying off the principal, you're just renting from the bank without the benefit of having a landlord to fix things.

Renting a house is more or less unheard of. If I want a house I need to buy one (or: “rent from the bank” as it were)

And the market price is basically “what two high income earners can afford if they pay interest only”.

So: if I want to live in a house at all, I need to buy it using borrowed money, and in the window I expect to live in a house (say 10-25 years) I couldn’t make a large dent in the principal regardless, because of the extremely low interest rates (around 1% now for mortgages) and the high prices that come from that. I don’t like it, but I don’t have a choice.

Also regulations strongly favor buying with borrowed money over renting. Interest can be deducted while those who rent from a landlord obviously pay interest too - indirectly through their rent - but in their case it isn’t deductible. So anyone who is forced to rent (e.g because they can’t afford the huge 15-20% down payment or aren’t paid enough to get the mortgage) is pretty much subsidizing the tax deductions of those who take mortgages.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#178

Post by maccard » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

FalconSensei wrote: post #147

light_hue_1 wrote: post #140

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

The only problem with your comparison (and I'm not saying devs don't make less money in EU) is that you can't just convert one currency to the other. You have to compare purchasing power and quality of life. The same salary in US could be viewed as 'you are rich' or 'you can't pay rent' depending on with city you live in. Now, you are talking about different continents. I would compare the possible lifestyles and qua…

I've made this point many many times on this site, but if you make 150k in san Francisco, and pay 4k a month on rent, you have more left over after rent and tax than a mid level developer in europe makes as a gross salary.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#179

Post by darkhorse13 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #140

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

Money is not the only important thing in life.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#180

Post by balfirevic » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

greatgib wrote: post #129

All in this article looked standard up to the point where I discoved that: "This is assuming that you are single and not a church member, because there is an extra tax (around 9% of your income tax) if you belong to one." Wtf germany? I have found more info: https://www.nomadenberlin.com/blog2/german-church-tax-kirche... it is a complete non-sense to me, if ever you wanted to give, why you are not allowed to decide t…

Hah, to a Croatian that sounds fantastic, you can actually opt out! Here the government just gives gobs of money to the church, which then in turns does the propaganda for the said government.