Live data from Hacker News

SolarBatteryBitcoin

github.com

171–180 of 214 posts

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#171
post #50
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if many Joules of renewable power get wasted during periods of overproduction (mid-day in the summer in California), other more worthwhile loads could be shifted to use that power, because today it's negative-priced during such periods. Clearly there aren't such worthwhile loads available, which is why the rates go negative in the first place. >pre-cooling of buildings during the summer (run the AC in houses f…

That money should be used to invest in real energy storage and not burning it through asics and useless calculations.

This model includes batteries and it uses mining to pay for those batteries.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#172
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water desalination and green hydrogen production using clean energy are already real applications and growing markets. The cost of the water is a function of electricity cost, investment needed to build the plants. So, being able to use cheap clean energy for that would reduce cost and make that more attractive. With water, you tend to use the cheapest option. If you are in the middle east on the coast, far from rive…

The problems with water desalination and hydrogen production is that if you dont run at a somewhat constant volume you likely aren't at the financial optimum. You can do maintenance and stuff when the energy price is high but turning everything off is just likely not financially sustainable. The energy cost is just one factor. If the plant does not use any energy it still has plenty other running cost that wont stop.…

Desal plants need to run constantly anyway, at least in my understanding.

Desalination plants aren't really something you build for profit, they're to secure your cities clean water supply and are usually taxpayer funded infrastructure projects.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#173

The amount of energy spent on this is breathtaking and it really has to stop. A single bitcoin transaction has a carbon footprint of 359.04 kgCO2 – equivalent to the carbon footprint of 795,752 VISA transactions or 59,840 hours of watching YouTube. https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/bitcoin-shocker-cr...

In all fairness I think we should consider the amount of energy spent to mine gold every year too (as well as the environmental impact), and that's just to mine it, not to mention refining, auditing, transporting, securing, etc. The energy spent on Bitcoin includes mining, auditing, transporting, securing, etc. It is interesting, at least, to consider that mining Bitcoin is all inclusive. All the energy spent support…

This is more a case for banning gold speculation and Bitcoin.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#174
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people need bitcoin. It is really useful to hoard! Not to ge rich, but to avoid getting poorer in countries with rampant inflation. Also it facilitate money transfers a lot. Yes, a transaction in bitcoin is expensive, but a international wire transfer on my country for example is EVEN MORE expensive, so transferring money using Bitcoin, even after eating all the fees, is cheaper (and easier too). So people t…

A great comparison I've heard is 'how much energy is required to mine one bitcoin's worth of gold'? I haven't seen a figure, and as gold's negative externalities are more about groundwater pollution than CO2e it wouldn't tell the whole story, but it would still be an interesting comparison.

Gold is about 0.8 tons / troy oz. Given the current exchange rate of ~30 troy oz / BTC, that's 24 tons of CO2 / one-bitcoin-worth-of-gold.

At current mining rewards, 329,000 BTC are mined each year, producing 37 megatons of CO2, or about 110 tons of CO2 / one-bitcoin-worth-of-bitcoin.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#175
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's still not the problem: Proof-of-work mining wastes energy purposefully, while any other type of data processing only does so coincidentally. Data centers would jump at the opportunity of using 50% less electricity due to more efficient processors. Bitcoin miners would just mine twice as fast.

No, the amount of energy "wasted" is not measured, the incentive is hashrate, and each generation of hardware is more efficient in terms of hashrate per joule.

> the incentive is hashrate, and each generation of hardware is more efficient in terms of hashrate per joule

That only affects who finds the next block. It will always take about 10 minutes, regardless of hashrate, energy usage, hardware efficiency, number of miners, etc. since the difficulty is adjusted to factor all of those out.

For anyone who isn't a miner (and doesn't care to become one), the only variables which matter are energy-usage and difficulty-of-51%-attack (i.e. double spending).

AFAIK the only reasons to advocate for bitcoin mining are:

- A vested interest. Since bitcoin is a zero/negative-sum game, nobody else should care about someone else's vested interest; if anything they should be opposed (in the negative case; e.g. as a waste of shared resources).

- belief that double-spending is currently unacceptably easy, and would become acceptably difficult given the increased hashrate.

Whilst I don't know of an objective 'acceptable optimum' for the difficulty of double-spending, it would take a lot to convince me that (a) there are credible threats given the current hashrate and (b) those threats would be solved by an increased hashrate. The only threats that even come close would be on the scale of nation-states, or perhaps the largest tech multinationals; yet even if we're paranoid enough to believe they could pull off an attack, I fail to see how burning even 10 times as much energy on hashing would disuade such a level of paranoia.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes let's ignore that I'm living on the same planet as you do and it doesn't affect myself and my family. Right? And no we don't live in a society where this doesn't matter. You are not allowed to do with your money whatever you want. Buying a hitman: illegal in most of the world. And you do understand that it is hypocritical to create a ton of co2 and making farming in other countries really hard and complaining lat…

How on Earth is comparing this to hiring a hitman reasonable? If your point is that you can't spend money on illegal things, bitcoin is not illegal. Also, who complained about immigrants? Where did this come from. And even if immigrants/farming had any relevance to the discussion co2 is likely to increase crop yields.

It's just an easy example of disproving your argument.

Bringing up immigration is just a reference on today and what will come due to thinking that we as a society don't depend on decision from others.

It's a global problem with global implications for all of us.

And no co2 hurts us more than it helps us.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#177
post #149

The main problem with this "model" is that it assumes a world where only solar power, batteries and bitcoin exist. But we live in a more complicated world where coal power plants, other possible uses of excess electricity and many other things exist.

True. One solution could be to incentivize miners to use cleaner energy.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#178
post #52
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would break bitcoin very fast. No american will continue to infest in bitcoin if the majority of miners is in china only

But the majority of miners are already in China...

And no one is probably trusting it really.

Btc is small and my point I made with the assumption that bitcoin has real influence.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your comment only makes sense if it's interpreted as describing a world where bitcoin conquers the world and there is no other kind of money > Only because we _currently_ lack trust? If so, shouldn't we focus on that instead? my friend, if you can solve the problems of trust in human social systems, you will have solved a lot more than decentralized digital cash

In practice the problem of trust is not a big deal, otherwise nobody would be able to trade anything.

I think you're mostly right. As with many problems in society at the moment, the complexities have arisen because we're so eager to connect everything to the internet and make it "exist" there. Also that we're so eager to make it work globally.

I can trust that the local coffee shop will give me a coffee for my money. I can trust my employer will pay me, failing that I can trust the local courts will sort it out.

I can't really trust that a bitcoin wallet host, some ephemeral digital entity I have very little insight into, will hold onto my wallet. I can't trust that a cloud provider in the states will hold onto my files without scanning them. I can't trust that an eCommerce store will definitely ship me goods internationally.

The human element disappears online and we have starting trying to fill that void with digital trust artifacts, like digital contracts. The blockchain itself was a technology entirely about trust.

Maybe we're trying to stretch our ability to trust networks, social or otherwise, too far.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#180

The amount of energy spent on this is breathtaking and it really has to stop. A single bitcoin transaction has a carbon footprint of 359.04 kgCO2 – equivalent to the carbon footprint of 795,752 VISA transactions or 59,840 hours of watching YouTube. https://www.financialexpress.com/industry/bitcoin-shocker-cr...

The amount of energy spent on complaining about how others use energy is breathtaking and it really has to stop.

What you are saying is that people are doing things with energy that you don't understand, and can't make sense of why they do it. The people that do, do understand, and think it is very sensible to do this.

There are many things in this life I do not like, however, I strongly believe that I have no place to condemn the actions of others provided they do no harm.

The argument then becomes if non-green generation of bitcoin is harmful -- I would say, yes it possibly is! That is why projects like SolarBatteryBitcoin are so important, to provide an incentive green-energy production behavior; which appears to be the main reason you don't like this technology.

I implore you to open your eyes to what is going on here. You can sit on the sidelines throwing rocks, or you can take part in the biggest change in your lifetime.

Post reply on HN