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SolarBatteryBitcoin

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Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#61

Post by Hermio »

yrral wrote: post #25

I had mentioned something like this on HN multiple times in the past but my thoughts never got much traction or upvotes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26811819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26094279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25444985 (among others) I'd like to solicit feedback on why this is, did I not explain some point clearly enough or is it just the legitimacy of it coming from ark vs a r…

What is our problem? The problem is creating/producing co2 is a problem for our planet. Can we agree on this?

If we agree on the co2 production problem, lets take a look at what bitcoin is doing:

It converts a lot of energy/resources of our planet into co2. It does that by the asic's someone has to create, and by far the direct energy consumption. What does bitcoin produce? It produces transaction security right?

1. That value bitcoin is creating, is basically necessary to allow bitcoin to function. Without energy consumption, no transaction. Right now, we have a system which is able to create secure transactions, its called our current financial system. Our financial system is optimized for cost, speed and trust. Trust by regulations on different levels (state, world etc.). We have a global financial system.

That financial system is not perfect but bitcoin is also not perfect right? Okay so what is the advantage of bitcoin? People say its open, i can invest in bitcoins without regulations and i can send money to people like who are in a regime (in theory). Is that true? Is Bitcoin making sure that if your country decides to stop money transactions to North Korea for good reasons, that bitcoins stop working there? No it doesn't. All those mechanism, which are there to protect the normal people more than the tax fraud people are gone in the bitcoin system.

Therefore, the big advantge Bitcoin actually delivers (unregulated financial system) will be regulated as hard as our current system as soon as it hits a relevant size. And its not even hard as long as Bitcoin doesn't have any value. It doesn't has any real value as it is not a currency, its only a crypto currency. It doesn't has a country behind it. That it works as it works right now is just due to speculations/gambling.

We have to make sure that investing in batteries, other storage options, dump load with usefullness (pre heating water, using an EV, producing hydrogen, smelting more metals on high demand time, enabling technology to flip on and off devices like washing machines) is actually more reasonable INSTEAD of having to fight the Bitcoin gambling market.

Googles Datacenter are using 10times LESS energy than bitcoin https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-power-consu... and every single server/service on a Google Datacenter adds more value to our society than any bitcoin transaction ever will.

All of our datacenters are only using 80twh more energy than bitcion and all those datacenters give us as a society values like entertainment, banking, building, simulating stuff, doing research like cancer research etc. etc.

BITCOIN is the worst invention in our society so far as it is the only invention i'm aware of which has such a high impact on resource consumption with no real value to our planet :(

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#62

Post by Hermio »

sfvisser wrote: post #37
hyko wrote: post #35

Increasing bitcoin mining capacity allows the energy provider to “overbuild” solar without wasting energy. Nope. “Free” PoW undermines the whole system. Mining has to be a sacrifice, otherwise it won’t work anymore. There is no “and I can use the resulting infrastructure for X”. Every joule of energy that goes into proof of work is a joule wasted by design . There is no free lunch. I’m starting to think that maybe cr…

> I’m starting to think that maybe cryptocurrency is the great filter. It’s actually pretty terrifying. Either cryptocurrency is extremely useful and the energy spent will turn out not to be wasted at all or it is a big useless energy draining scam and the whole thing will soon collapse. I really don't see a scenario were it will still be useless or only moderately useful and consuming so much energy that the human s…

Oversaturated financial markets perhaps?

Who the fuck invests in bitcoin? People with too much money and the habit of gambling.

No one can tell me that there is a logical argument without flaw and a ton of assumptions that the bitcoin market is in its current state anything than gambling.

Because bitcoin is so active and new makes it so interesting for gambling :(

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#63

Post by scotty79 »

barathr wrote: post #7

I'd like to believe that something like this is possible, but I just don't get how this gets around the fact that every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else. Even if many Joules of renewable power get wasted during periods of overproduction (mid-day in the summer in California), other more worthwhile loads could be shifted to use that power, because today it's negative-pric…

We don't have a problem that we lack Joules. What we lack is the reason for the rich to buy Joule generating capacity beyond what's absolutely necessary. And Bitcoin could provide that reason.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#64

Post by csomar »

lottin wrote: post #34
erentz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else. This applies to so many things. Snapchat data center? YouTube using gigawatts to process and stream cat videos? On and on. It’s really hard to control what people do with energy. Much better to focus on ensuring its priced correctly and all it’s externalities are properly included in that price. Then we don’t have to involv…

Unlike Bitcoin, the Snapchat data centre isn't designed to waste as much electricity as fast as it possibly can. Bitcoin is designed to be wasteful, so don't be surprised if people takes issue with that.

This is purely subjective. Bitcoin's spent electricity goes to increase security of the network (whether one's care about the network, is the subjective part). But the electricity is not being turned into heat for no purpose and then ejected into the atmosphere.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#65

Post by scotty79 »

Blumfid wrote: post #53
dnautics wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else" Not really? Batteries have limited capacity so at the point where the grid cannot buy any and your battery is topped up, you're mining bitcoin.

And who will invest in batteries or other direct useful power usage if burning it through asic's is just making more money? No one :(

Bitcoin mining becomes less profitable the more people do it.

At some point it gives you exactly as much as you pay for energy to mine.

So if you can store electricity in the batteries for long enough to sell it for more than pruce of purchase then you are better off investing in the battery.

But since batteries are expensive and inefficient, you might be better off investing in the wind turbine or solar panel and mine with it if you can't sell energy to the grid for more money.

It's better than battery because when demand is high it gives energy, but it doesn't have to take energy when demand is low and it keeps itself financially afloat even when there's no high demand for a long time which might kill your battery energy storage enterprise.

I know about at least one pumped storage facility that died because of that.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#66

Post by scotty79 »

314 wrote: post #36
barathr wrote: post #7

I'd like to believe that something like this is possible, but I just don't get how this gets around the fact that every Joule that is used for bitcoin mining is a Joule that wasn't used somewhere else. Even if many Joules of renewable power get wasted during periods of overproduction (mid-day in the summer in California), other more worthwhile loads could be shifted to use that power, because today it's negative-pric…

Adding an elastic demand sink to a peaky supply in a way that is profitable is quite interesting. Joules that are not used at all are wasted. This converts that wasted generation into cash allowing expansion of the facilities and more Joules overall.

You can even drop the battery completely and keep the same dynamics.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#67

Post by WanderPanda »

krageon wrote: post #47
lottin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Bitcoin, the Snapchat data centre isn't designed to waste as much electricity as fast as it possibly can. Bitcoin is designed to be wasteful, so don't be surprised if people takes issue with that.

Literally every joule that goes into snapchat datacenters is wasted. It's not necessary, it doesn't make anything happy and it's primarily a way for a large company to harvest a lot of data on young people. Nobody wins with the way this power is used.

Is your comment any better?

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#68

Post by makotoNagano »

krageon wrote: post #47
lottin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Bitcoin, the Snapchat data centre isn't designed to waste as much electricity as fast as it possibly can. Bitcoin is designed to be wasteful, so don't be surprised if people takes issue with that.

Literally every joule that goes into snapchat datacenters is wasted. It's not necessary, it doesn't make anything happy and it's primarily a way for a large company to harvest a lot of data on young people. Nobody wins with the way this power is used.

You can make that argument for any piece of entertainment. why live? let's all kill ourselves, that way we won't use any energy anymore.

Re: SolarBatteryBitcoin

#70

Post by lxgr »

csomar wrote: post #64
lottin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike Bitcoin, the Snapchat data centre isn't designed to waste as much electricity as fast as it possibly can. Bitcoin is designed to be wasteful, so don't be surprised if people takes issue with that.

This is purely subjective. Bitcoin's spent electricity goes to increase security of the network (whether one's care about the network, is the subjective part). But the electricity is not being turned into heat for no purpose and then ejected into the atmosphere.

That's still not the problem: Proof-of-work mining wastes energy purposefully, while any other type of data processing only does so coincidentally.

Data centers would jump at the opportunity of using 50% less electricity due to more efficient processors. Bitcoin miners would just mine twice as fast.

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