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> In America. The rest of the civilised world decided on this a long time ago. You ended up calling half the world's population "uncivilized".
true. good point. poor choice of words. my apologies.
The real reason to end the death penalty
141–150 of 546 posts
Re: The real reason to end the death penalty
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let's assume the "innocent people get killed" argument abolishes death penalty today. What are the second-order effects of that argument which can be detrimental to the society that you can think of?
Actually, the counter-argument is "innocent people get killed by already convincted murderer that went out of jail"... ECONOMICS: Another counter-argument is "the society pay for the whole life of the jailed murderer, so it's a cost paid by the society for something that broke society laws" And then another argument is "a murderer may prefer to be killed than to be kept in jail for the rest of his life". Actually, th…
> And we don't really have "forever jail": it's 20 years I think and can even be shortened if prisoner show in jail that he's ready to come back to society (except if it would be a trouble for the society).
20 year is the maximum required in case of non-premeditated murder (or manslaughter on minor i think).
In some cases (murder of a minor, group manslaughter of a state agent, premeditated murder of a state agent and one other case i can't remember), the criminal can be given "incompressible" perpetuity. After a minimum of 30 year, on a judge decision (often because the murderer is dying or very, very old), the "incompressible" part can get shafted.
Also death penalty is expensive. More than keeping prisonners locked up.
Re: The real reason to end the death penalty
#143>This circus of incompetence and dishonesty is the real issue with the death penalty.
This is the real issue with almost every human endeavor, especially those that affect other people's lives. ( example politics, taxes)
Re: The real reason to end the death penalty
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…
I’m not trying to win an argument, just stating what I believe.
That means you are more interested in stating what you believe than winning an argument that will save innocent lives?
Re: The real reason to end the death penalty
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
49% of Brits would support the reintroduction of the death penalty. I suspect that the same is true across Europe and that you are living in a bubble. [0] [0] https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-dea...
Right up to the point where you explain what that means in practice. As ever with polls it depends how you frame the question.
> As ever with polls it depends how you frame the question.
Obligatory 'Yes, Prime Minister' clip: https://youtu.be/G0ZZJXw4MTA
Re: The real reason to end the death penalty
#146I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…
Doesn't that exact same argument work as well when applied to jailing people? It's wrong if I kidnap someone and keep them confined for years in a small room, so how can it not be wrong for the state to do it in the name of the law?
Re: The real reason to end the death penalty
#147If this had been written by anyone but pg, the headline would've been changed to "A Reason to End the Death Penalty" :D
Re: The real reason to end the death penalty
#148This argument is garbage. Of course there will be miscarriages of justice and this has been talked about since the beginning. There is nothing new here. > 4% of people on death row are innocent. This is not true, but it's irrelevant anyway since what is the acceptable level? Since it's not mentioned, we have gotten nowhere in this blog post. If we get it very close to zero, is it then ok then? Is the single incidence…
I don’t see your counter argument here. The post is indeed arguing that “zero people killed by the government for crimes they did not commit” is more ok than “greater than zero people killed.” This is a valid argument, drawing on the intuition that accidentally letting a guilty person escape death (even if we accept they deserve it) is a lesser evil than letting an innocent person die.
A number of people I've talked to about this feel that the false positive rate is perfectly fine. That it's just the price we pay for justice overall.
Re: The real reason to end the death penalty
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
The trap you are both falling into is the thought that political discussions centre around trying to understand the other persons point of view. It is almost always the other way around, one person trying to persuade an unwilling party that they are wrong. So as the poster said, as right as you are, you would still lose the political argument if that was how you tried to argue for your view. You can be correct all da…
It’s all good and well to try and persuade someone, but like the GP sometimes I like to simply state my ideological viewpoint. The problem with narrowly arguing based on someone else’s ideals, is that any agreement isn’t a true meeting of the minds. For example people, once tried to end the deal then penalty by talking about to pain involved in hanging. Proponents agreed and eventually came up with the electric chair…
That's called a compromise, right? Reducing the pain involved and increasing the burden of proof required are both concrete, positive reforms, even if it doesn't completely resolve the issue.
Re: The real reason to end the death penalty
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
This "debate" has been over in all other nations that the US likes to be compared for years. It is similar to the "tough on crime" incarceration "debate" in the US, where perverse incentives and political expediency has led to the US being the highest-per-capita incarcerator in the world. Framing the death penalty debate around "innocent people get killed" will not change the partisan/class perceptions. The US crimin…
Very much agreed. The left and intellectuals have won the debate in most (all?) of the west and the US policies are widely considered barbaric, inhumane and corrupt. The current state of affairs in the US is unfortunately a testament to the US society. Having said that, the US is quite a specific case and the truth is that the current approach of the left doesn't seem to work there. Progress is being made, but as an…
The only flaw I see in your analysis is that you seem to believe Europe is better off in any way. Feudalism is making a resurgence all over the west.