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“They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

lore.kernel.org

351–360 of 1001 posts

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#351
post #299

How does something like this get through IRB - I always felt IRB was over the top - and then they approve something like this? UMN looks pretty shoddy - the response from the researcher saying these were automated by a tool looks like a potential lie.

They obtained an "IRB-exempt letter" because their IRB found that this was not human research. It's quite likely that the IRB made this finding based on a misrepresentation of the research during that initial stage; once they had an exemption letter the IRB wouldn't be looking any closer.

That's what it seemed like to me as well. Based on their research paper, they did not mention the individuals they interacted with at all.

They also lied in the paper about their methodology - claiming that once their code was accepted, they told the maintainers it should not be included. In reality, several of their bad commits made it into the stable branch.

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#352

As a user of the linux kernel, I feel legal action against the "researchers" should be pursued.

I agree, I think they should be looking at criminal charges. This is the equivalent of getting a job at Ford on the assembly line and then damaging vehicles to see if anyone notices. I've been in software security for 13 years and the "Is Open Source Really Secure" question is so over done. We KNOW there is risk associated with open source.

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#353

Linux maintainers should log a complaint with the University's ethics board. You can't just experiment on people without consent.

I always find the dichotomy we have regarding human subject experimentation interesting in the US. We essentially have two ecosystems of human subjects as to what is allowed and isn't: public and privately funded. The contrast is a bit stark.

We have public funded rules (typically derived or pressured by availability of federal or state monies/resources) which are quite strict, have ethics and IRB boards, cover even behavioral studies like this where no direct physical harm is induced but still manipulates peoples' behaviors. This is the type of experiment you're referring to where you can't experiment on people without their consent (and by the way, I agree with this opinion).

Meanwhile, we have private funded research which has a far looser set of constraints and falls into everyday regulations. You can't really physically harm someone or inject syphilis in them (Tuskegee experiments) which makes sense, but when we start talking about human subjects in terms of data, privacy of data, or behavioral manipulation most regulation goes out the window.

These people likely could be reprimanded, even fired, and scarlet lettered making their career going forward more difficult (maybe not so much in this specific case because it's really not that harmful) but enough to screw them over financially and potentially in terms of career growth.

Meanwhile, some massive business could do this with their own funding and not bat an eye. Facebook could do this (I don't know why they would) but they could. Facebook is a prime example of largely unregulated human subject experimentation though. Social networks are a hotbed for data, interactions, and setting up experimentation. It's not just Facebook though (they're an obvious easy target), it's slews of businesses collecting data and manipulating it around consumers: marketing/advertising, product design/UX focusing on 'engagement', and all sorts of stuff. Every industry does this and that sort of human subject experimentation is accepted because $money$. Meanwhile, researchers from public funding sources are crucified for similar behaviors.

I'm not defending this sort of human subject experimentation, it's ethically questionable, wrong, and should involve punishment. I am however continually disgusted by the double standard we have. If we as a society really think this sort of experimentation on human subjects or human subject data is so awful, why do we allow it to occur under private capital and leave it largely unregulated?

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#356
post #325

Linux maintainers should log a complaint with the University's ethics board. You can't just experiment on people without consent.

I'm not sure it is experimenting people without consent. Though it's certainly shitty and opportunitstic of UoM to do this. Linux Bug fixes are open to the public. The experiment isn't on people but on bugs. I would be like filing different customer support complaints to change the behavior of a company -- you're not experimenting on people but the process of how that company interfaces with the public. I see no wron…

I assure you that customer support reps and Linux maintainers are in fact people.

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#357
post #2

I don't think there have been any recent comments from anyone at U.Mn. So, back when the original research (happened last year) the following clarification was offered by Qiushi Wu and Kangjie Lu which atleast paints their research in somewhat better light: https://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~kjlu/papers/clarifications-hc.... That said the current incident seems to have gone beyond the limits of that one and is a new incid…

From their explanation: (3). We send the incorrect minor patches to the Linux community through email to seek their feedback. (4). Once any maintainer of the community responds to the email, indicating “looks good”, we immediately point out the introduced bug and request them to not go ahead to apply the patch. At the same time, we point out the correct fixing of the bug and provide our proper patch. In all the three…

I'm confused - how is this an experiment on humans? Which humans? As far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with humans, and everything to do with the open-source review process - and if one thinks that it counts as a human experiment because humans are involved, wouldn't that logic apply equally to pentesting?

For that matter, what's the difference between this and pentesting?

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#358

Linux maintainers should log a complaint with the University's ethics board. You can't just experiment on people without consent.

According to duncaen, the researchers had gotten the green light from the ethics board before conducting the experiment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26888978

Because they lied to them. They promised not to do any actual harm. But they did

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#359

How does something like this get through IRB - I always felt IRB was over the top - and then they approve something like this? UMN looks pretty shoddy - the response from the researcher saying these were automated by a tool looks like a potential lie.

IRB is useless. They don't use much context, including if the speediness of IRB approval would save lives. You could make a reasonable argument that IRB has contributed to millions of preventable deaths at this point, with COV alone it's at least dozens of thousands if not far more.

Re: “They introduce kernel bugs on purpose”

#360
I don't like this university ban approach.

Universities are places with lots of different students, professors, and different people with different ideas, and inevitably people who make bad choices.

Universities don't often act with a single purpose or intent. That's what makes them interesting. Prone to failure and bad ideas, but also new ideas that you can't do at corporate HQ because you've got a CEO breathing down your neck.

At the University of Minnesota there's 50k+ students at the Twin Cities campus alone, 3k plus instructors. Even more at other University of Minnesota campuses.

None of those people did anything wrong. Putting the onus on them to effect change to me seems unfair. The people banned didn't do anything wrong.

Now the kernel doesn't 'need' any of their contributions, but I think this is a bad method / standard to set to penalize / discourage everyone under an umbrella when they've taken no bad actions themselves.

Although I can't put my finger on why, this ban on whole swaths of people in some ways seems very not open source.

The folks who did the thing were wrong to do so, but the vast majority of people now impacted by this ban didn't do the thing.

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