Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#201

Post by mratsim » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #124

m9731526 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> very vibrant ecosystem of developers and builders Whenever I see someone say something like this for some blockchain, I wonder what exactly is exciting for them? Most dapps is about money and more money, I played with Ethereum before (like stress testing nodes), and would really like to know really innovating dapp these days -- I mean tech that solve existing real-world problems, not create new subjects to collect.

You won't find any. I searched as well. Once you try to make your dapp interact with the real world you run into so many problems that it is very unclear whether it could ever be competitive compared to traditional legal/financial structures.

Thankfully DeFi doesn't require 3 days of settlement when you buy/sell an asset.

Or 2 weeks to send a SWIFT.

DeFi has a UX/UI, onboarding and fee problems, but the technology is about 2 years old and has tremendous momentum and already enabling uses cases that reqire jumping through hoops in tradFi.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#202

Post by mratsim » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #123

dash2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A question I've asked before: are there any applications which don't involve speculation?

Well - money laundering, drug dealing, ICO scams... On the positive side I think there's something like creating wealth through the power of imagination. I mean 20 years ago there were no crypto currencies. Now on paper they are worth $2trn ($260 a head for the world's population). And lots of people can feel wealthy because they have $100k in bitcoin of whatever. And it can retain actual value in the sense that you…

> I mean 20 years ago there were no crypto currencies.

Actually wrong.

- David Chaum, 1982, eCash

- Adam Back, 1997, HashCash

- Wei Dai, 1998, b-money

- Nick Szabo, 1998, BitGold

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#203

Post by mratsim » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

dash2 wrote: post #175

dmihal wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you consider earning interest to be speculation? I can put stablecoins (crypto dollars) in a lending protocol like Aave and earn ~10% APY. Compare that to my savings account, which pays out 0.25% APY. Or how about the stablecoins themselves? MakerDAO creates the Dai stablecoin, backed by crypto-native assets like ETH & BTC. I have a number of friends in Argentina who are surviving hyper-inflation by keeping their…

Earning 10% "riskfree" isn't speculation, it's a Ponzi. What serious borrower needs to pay 10% to access credit? So then, who are the borrowers who are paying this interest? As they say on Reddit: !remindme 1 year.

Arbitragers gladly pay 10% of their risk-free income to lenders to execute an arbitrage opportunity.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#204

Post by mratsim » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

inter_netuser wrote: post #69

runeks wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The potential issue isn't spontaneous breakage, but rather a determined attacker exploiting the incentive structure in an unexpected manner. And the financial motivation to do this is much greater for ETH since it's around 100 times more liquid than ALGO.

It will likely not fail due to a direct attack on PoS. Ethereum has shown they are willing to rollback the chain in case of attacks. What's more concerning is that Proof of Wealth (which is what Stake really is), is just going to lead to those with biggest balances dictating rules to everyone else. Exactly what happened in EOS, Steem, etc... It will become a plutocracy with cute emojis.

EOS and Steemit are delegated Proof-of-Stake, people elect "grand stakers" that will do everything, and this lead to briberies.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#205

Post by mratsim » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

ddeyar wrote: post #181

zertrin wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not doubting any of your statements, but why have I never heard of it before? If it is good why hasn't it displaced ethereum and become more mainstream? Are there any cons that prevent it to become more prominent? (sincere question from me, I am curious to know more)

This is are very good question. I really don't know why the mainstream ignored this project so far. Compared to some other projects, there is no single person in the center of the project, so there is no one to be hyped. This is sad but it seems to be a disadvantage. The loudest are getting attention and with so many projects out there, the tezos community was a long time pretty silent. The smart contract language is…

> Its a functional language which allows formal verification.

Imperative languages can also be formally verified. See the K framework for formal modeling and verification of EVM smart contracts.

Detailed list: https://github.com/leonardoalt/ethereum_formal_verification_...

> Gas price is extremely low.

Beware, the gas price might be low because there is no volume. Binance Smart Chain had a lot of difficulty the past 2 days because they underpriced gas cost and basically DOS-ed themselves:

- https://mobile.twitter.com/PancakeSwap/status/13845099723948...

- https://mobile.twitter.com/peter_szilagyi/status/13848238801...

You missed a very nice example of Tezos adoption, which was the French military police using it to pay sources

https://journalducoin.com/blockchain/actualites-blockchain/u...

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#206

Post by stiltzkin » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

fumblebee wrote: post #72

xvector wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks and physical currency alike. You can now transfer value simply by having a public/private key pair. No need for banks and their multi-day wire transfers. No need for KYC. You can borrow and lend on a decentralized network within minutes. Invest in markets, make purchases. All without relying on a centralized entity, and without being bound by your government. Crypto really is something beautiful to the cypherpu…

You still need KYC at entry and exit points into the crypto market (e.g. Coinbase), you still need to transfer fiat money onto exchanges via traditional payments infrastructure. The decentralised, utopian vision only works if the entire game is played there. Also, a side note, KYC is a good thing for things like AML. The ability to dispute with centralised orgs like banks is a good thing; the major issue with decentr…

Things like localmonero you can trade fiat and monero without KYC.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#207

Post by suikadayo » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

inter_netuser wrote: post #94

meowkit wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we don’t have plutocracy in the current fiat money system(s)? Relative inequality is super low and investment opportunities abound for all income levels? We don’t have a plutocracy in PoW coins like BTC either right? Super cheap and easy to spin up a mining operation I heard.

Given that nearly every miner and large exchange/business tried and failed to force changes to BTC, I'd argue that influence of plutocrats on the fundamental properties of Bitcoin is significantly lower. Failure of the New York Agreement is certainly more reassuring than never-ending hard forks.

Yeah, and any discussion surrounding hard forks was allowed right in the open on /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk, leading to informed node operators.. oh wait, that didn't happen, people got banned.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#208

Post by dmihal » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

dash2 wrote: post #175

dmihal wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you consider earning interest to be speculation? I can put stablecoins (crypto dollars) in a lending protocol like Aave and earn ~10% APY. Compare that to my savings account, which pays out 0.25% APY. Or how about the stablecoins themselves? MakerDAO creates the Dai stablecoin, backed by crypto-native assets like ETH & BTC. I have a number of friends in Argentina who are surviving hyper-inflation by keeping their…

Earning 10% "riskfree" isn't speculation, it's a Ponzi. What serious borrower needs to pay 10% to access credit? So then, who are the borrowers who are paying this interest? As they say on Reddit: !remindme 1 year.

> What serious borrower needs to pay 10% to access credit?

People who can make more than 10% trading?

Lending protocols aren't doing anything different than what banks do: allocating inactive capital to those who can make use of that capital and are willing to pay for it.

Interest rates are high because of A: market volatility, professional traders can easily make more than 10%, and B: information asymmetry, large capital pools haven't allocated to these pools.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#209

Post by arbol » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

inter_netuser wrote: post #55

throwastrike wrote: post #23

What is crypto replacing really? I’ve yet to read even a fair explanation without mental gymnastics. And I’ve been waiting to the last ten years.

crypto overall is a joke. Bitcoin is replacing central banks.

Bitcoin is more likely going to be the Lycos to Google or MySpace to Facebook.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#210

Post by ddeyar » Wed, Apr 21, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

mratsim wrote: post #205

ddeyar wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is are very good question. I really don't know why the mainstream ignored this project so far. Compared to some other projects, there is no single person in the center of the project, so there is no one to be hyped. This is sad but it seems to be a disadvantage. The loudest are getting attention and with so many projects out there, the tezos community was a long time pretty silent. The smart contract language is…

> Its a functional language which allows formal verification. Imperative languages can also be formally verified. See the K framework for formal modeling and verification of EVM smart contracts. Detailed list: https://github.com/leonardoalt/ethereum_formal_verification_... > Gas price is extremely low. Beware, the gas price might be low because there is no volume. Binance Smart Chain had a lot of difficulty the past…

> Imperative languages can also be formally verified. See the K framework for formal modeling and verification of EVM smart contracts.

Good to see that eth has the possibility too. It's a must have in my opinion.

> Beware, the gas price might be low because there is no volume. Binance Smart Chain had a lot of difficulty the past 2 days because they underpriced gas cost and basically DOS-ed themselves:

I don't know how tezos would react when DOS-ed. The next upgrade brings some further optimizations with it. Gas will then be calculated using saturated arithmetic.