Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

ethereumcashflow.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 302 posts

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#121

Post by throwaway_isms »

nmfisher wrote: post #113
throwaway_isms wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money behind big tech has mastered manipulating demand and that is exactly what you are seeing in the Ethereum/NFT ecosystem. It is one giant fraud bankrolled by unlimited capital that can artificially increase prices at which point there becomes demand from people in fear of missing out, once the early capital has the suckers locked in the prices plateau at first as the capital stops buying and driving the price…

I struggle to have any sympathy for "the little guy". Noone's lying to them, noone's defrauding them, noone's stealing anything or embezzling from them. It's just greed, plain and simple. If you pile into a get-rich-quick scheme but end up holding the bag in, then more fool you. I still think it should probably be regulated to prevent idiots from losing their life savings. But I won't pretend the losers are ethically…

>It's just greed, plain and simple.

I get that position, but it is a lot more than greed...or maybe a lot less.

It is uneducated investors that see something they don't understand that is unregulated, easily accessible and being marketed to them in ways they should be considered lying and defrauding.

Again the fact that you have a CEO of a publicly traded company constantly Tweeting Doge to the Moon...its easy to say well you bought in thats just greed, fine, but its dystopian as hell.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#122

Post by inter_netuser »

dash2 wrote: post #65
sherlock_h wrote: post #7

What mostly excites me about Ethereum ist the very vibrant ecosystem of developers and builders around it. You can think of NFTs and DeFi whatever you want, the sheer amount of new applications and innovative ideas on the ethereum blockchain has been mind-boggling. My personal favorite is Sorare, which combines NFT collectibles with fantasy soccer. And sure, right now everything suffers from high gas prices but it lo…

A question I've asked before: are there any applications which don't involve speculation?

timestamping?

Don't even need to pay any fees: https://opentimestamps.org/

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#123

Post by tim333 »

dash2 wrote: post #65
sherlock_h wrote: post #7

What mostly excites me about Ethereum ist the very vibrant ecosystem of developers and builders around it. You can think of NFTs and DeFi whatever you want, the sheer amount of new applications and innovative ideas on the ethereum blockchain has been mind-boggling. My personal favorite is Sorare, which combines NFT collectibles with fantasy soccer. And sure, right now everything suffers from high gas prices but it lo…

A question I've asked before: are there any applications which don't involve speculation?

Well - money laundering, drug dealing, ICO scams...

On the positive side I think there's something like creating wealth through the power of imagination.

I mean 20 years ago there were no crypto currencies. Now on paper they are worth $2trn ($260 a head for the world's population). And lots of people can feel wealthy because they have $100k in bitcoin of whatever. And it can retain actual value in the sense that you can swap it for US$ as long as everyone doesn't sell at the same time. And where has the value come from - basically human imagination thinking the 0s and 1s are worth something. Which may be more sustainable than it sounds. Where does the value of fiat currency come from or the value of a painting in excess of the cost of making a copy of it?

I foresee a future where everyone is a crypto millionaire through the power of imagination. (Which would imply a 10000x form here?!)

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#124

Post by mustafa_pasi »

m9731526 wrote: post #106
sherlock_h wrote: post #7

What mostly excites me about Ethereum ist the very vibrant ecosystem of developers and builders around it. You can think of NFTs and DeFi whatever you want, the sheer amount of new applications and innovative ideas on the ethereum blockchain has been mind-boggling. My personal favorite is Sorare, which combines NFT collectibles with fantasy soccer. And sure, right now everything suffers from high gas prices but it lo…

> very vibrant ecosystem of developers and builders Whenever I see someone say something like this for some blockchain, I wonder what exactly is exciting for them? Most dapps is about money and more money, I played with Ethereum before (like stress testing nodes), and would really like to know really innovating dapp these days -- I mean tech that solve existing real-world problems, not create new subjects to collect.

You won't find any. I searched as well. Once you try to make your dapp interact with the real world you run into so many problems that it is very unclear whether it could ever be competitive compared to traditional legal/financial structures.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#125

Post by ArtTimeInvestor »

lottin wrote: post #118
ArtTimeInvestor wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Defaulting" in crypto means the collateral goes from the borrower to the lender. The collateral is always more valuable than the borrowed asset. Otherwise, all borrowers would "default" all the time. As there is no other downside to it than to lose your collateral.

So, the borrower starts with X BTC. They post X BTC as collateral and borrow X-y BTC (where y > 0). Once the loan is paid off, they get the collateral back. This means they end up with X BTC minus the interest paid on X-y. Why would anyone do that?

I am not sure if lending makes sense if the collateral is the same asset that is borrowed.

A more typical example I can envision:

Someone owns land in Decentraland. The land is an NFT on the Ethereum blockchain. To make profits from the land they need to put a hotel on top of it. But they don't have the means to buy/build the hotel. So they lend Decentracoins (some other asset on the Ethereum blockchain) and provide the land as collateral.

If all goes well, the borrower buys/builds a hotel with the decentracoins. Makes more decentracoins from visitors. Pays back their debt.

If it does not work out, the land goes to the lender.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#126

Post by Tangokat »

ObserverNeutral wrote: post #29
sherlock_h wrote: post #7

What mostly excites me about Ethereum ist the very vibrant ecosystem of developers and builders around it. You can think of NFTs and DeFi whatever you want, the sheer amount of new applications and innovative ideas on the ethereum blockchain has been mind-boggling. My personal favorite is Sorare, which combines NFT collectibles with fantasy soccer. And sure, right now everything suffers from high gas prices but it lo…

All those things will never break among the common folk. The common folk wants ease of use above anything else. It has to be as easy as sending money via paypal. No doubt ETH can be the base of that technically, but the model which has ETH holders make money off the appreciation of the ETH token in the process is flawed. Fortune500 and even startups who'd use the open source ETH blockchain technology to bring many se…

"All those things will never break among the common folk."

Just like normal folk will never use TCP/IP, know HTML etc?

Nobody needs to know that something runs on a blockchain or how NFTs work. Yes you need to know now but in 10 years my mum will use these things without having any idea what they are. Same as she's using an ipad now without knowing objective C or any underlying protocols and tech.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#127

Post by Yizahi »

intricatedetail wrote: post #93
sherlock_h wrote: post #7

What mostly excites me about Ethereum ist the very vibrant ecosystem of developers and builders around it. You can think of NFTs and DeFi whatever you want, the sheer amount of new applications and innovative ideas on the ethereum blockchain has been mind-boggling. My personal favorite is Sorare, which combines NFT collectibles with fantasy soccer. And sure, right now everything suffers from high gas prices but it lo…

Is there any material that explains NFT what it is for? I have a general idea, but to me it makes no sense e.g. what is the advantage over an invoice for something you bought.

You are asking the wrong question. "What is NFT for" question has a million convoluted and opaque answers with zero practical information.

Better question would be - "what is NFT". And the answer is JSON file with a hyperlink inside. That is all, literally nothing else is in NFT and no existing legal artifacts are any way related to selling/buying of NFTs.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#128

Post by lottin »

ArtTimeInvestor wrote: post #117
lottin wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the "risky investment" here? Well, you tell me. Where do the profits come from? > In the case of crypto, the lender is a smart contract. That doesn't make sense. The smart contract is a contract, that is, an agreement between two or more parties. An agreement is not a lender. The lender is one of the parties.

> The lender is one of the parties The "parties" do not know each other. And it does not matter who put the contract up, who put assets in and who borrowed assets from the contract. Because everything is in the smart contract. Even the assets. Are you aware that Ethereum contracts hold assets?

Let's pretend the lender is "smart contract" (even though it's not). You lend X to the smart contract, and after a while the smart contract pays you X+y. Where does the y come from?

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#129

Post by ArtTimeInvestor »

lottin wrote: post #96
inter_netuser wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the risk-free bonds have failed numerous times. Often they wiped out investors entirely. Full list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_debt_crises They cannot print value, only paper.

And you'll find these failed governments bonds were paying a considerable risk premium, i.e. a spread over the risk-free rate.

Not necessarily. Since the government can print the money they lend, they can dictate the risk premium. They can keep it as low as they want.

Italy and some other European countries are basically broke. But they pay less interest than the USA.

Re: Ethereum: A Store of Value with Cash Flow [pdf]

#130

Post by ArtTimeInvestor »

lottin wrote: post #128
ArtTimeInvestor wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lender is one of the parties The "parties" do not know each other. And it does not matter who put the contract up, who put assets in and who borrowed assets from the contract. Because everything is in the smart contract. Even the assets. Are you aware that Ethereum contracts hold assets?

Let's pretend the lender is "smart contract" (even though it's not). You lend X to the smart contract, and after a while the smart contract pays you X+y. Where does the y come from?

> even though it's not

We should sort this out first. It does not make sense to discuss higher level concepts if we disagree on lower level concepts.

Post reply on HN