My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant • Hacker News Board

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#201

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 4:20 AM UTC

lupatus wrote: post #171

anigbrowl wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument assumes a fixed number of available opportunities. In the work context, this is known as a 'lump of labor' fallacy.

Your 'lump of labor' logical fallacy contradicts the principle of 'the bottom line'. As a journalist, he is not creating work, but performing work assigned to him by a superior. His amount of available work to perform is limited.

That's not even wrong. Please decide what you want to say, and them say it, at which point I will be happy to engage with you.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#202

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 4:22 AM UTC

nick-dap wrote: post #51

I'm in the same boat. It's been difficult. I cannot express how grateful I am to Jose Vargas for writing this story. I was brought here as a kid 13 years ago. I'm 24 now. I also graduated from a "top" university -- like that matters. I guess my parents weren't smart enough to get a fake social security card for me back then, I wish they were. I've also been fighting for the Dream Act for what feels like an eternity.…

I'm not in the same boat, but I'm in the next one over - I too am an undocumented alien. You are not alone.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#203

Post by haberman » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 4:35 AM UTC

coryl wrote: post #182

haberman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is living in limbo for a decade, with literally no single piece of paper identifying you as a human being is "cutting in line?" Because other kids who might have liked to live in the US and go to a top university didn't get to. You got what you wanted faster because your family broke the law. I still believe that children who are brought here illegally should get a lot more leniency because they weren't respons…

Because other kids who might have liked to live in the US and go to a top university didn't get to. And some are lucky enough to simply be born in the US, and squander those opportunities anyway. I think its a bit funny to be citing "the law" as a grounds for which to argue this. It really has to go above and beyond what current laws are, into a moral and philosophical discussion of how people should treat each other…

I'm not sure whose viewpoint your arguing against, because it's sure not mine.

If we opened our border with Mexico, there would be a flood of immigration that would make the southern states a lot more like the Mexico they are trying to escape from than the US they are trying to escape to. This is purely a pragmatic argument. No one wins in this case (in the long term at least). It's also harder to provide for our national security if we can't control our borders (think how the borders were frozen for the few days after 9/11 -- no one knew what was going to happen next).

Since having an open border would be good for no one, it must be regulated. Given that it must be regulated, it is both fairest and most beneficial if all immigrants go through the same procedures to get here.

These are purely pragmatic arguments. Waxing poetic about history and philosophy is a rathole that won't actually help solve this problem. The Trail of Tears is a terrible mark on our history, but opening our borders with Mexico isn't going to give Native Americans their civilization back.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#204

Post by jshen » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 4:35 AM UTC

haberman wrote: post #146

jshen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you're assuming that our current regulation system is right. I think it's clear that our current system is broken. It's far too expensive to enforce our current system, so we're left with laws that are ineffectual. Reality trumps abstract ideas, and I think we need laws that deal effectively with the reality of our situation.

> Now you're assuming that our current regulation system is right. No, I'm arguing that it's more right than no regulation. But I'm not that interested in debating with someone who puts words in my mouth.

You keep framing things in black and white and I'm trying to make it explicit. If you don't mean what I think you mean then I am reading you wrong or it's not clear.

"I'm arguing that it's more right than no regulation"

See, more black and white. I don't think anyone is suggesting no regulation. You aren't putting words in my mouth are you? ;)

Why don't we create a legal process to let people that want to work here come and work. Why limit it so much?

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#205

Post by dennisgorelik » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 4:39 AM UTC

freshfunk wrote: post #197

dennisgorelik wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are NOT answering the issue of fairness of citizenship-by-birth. You are just claiming that it's ok to have discrimination by contry of birth. Well, unfair discrimination is NOT OK. That's why you are getting downvoted. I personally did not downvote you. Even though I strongly disagree - at least you are trying to understand.

You're framing the argument in a way that makes your position stronger and his weaker. But, in your framing, I think you miss some basic points. For me, it comes down to what he said here: >Meanwhile, though, I have no sympathy for people who are trying to shortcut the established processes. The "hope for a better life" just doesn't justify bypassing all the other people that wait in line. The thing is that everyone…

Instead of comparing illegal immigrants against legal immigrants, focus on comparing illegal immigrants against citizens who got their privileges by birth.

Share with us why immigrants are discriminated against and if this discrimination is fair.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#206

Post by etherael » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 4:43 AM UTC

Simple question, why is it not possible to have unrestricted immigration between nations period? Please do not give an answer that requires respecting privilege of native born inhabitants; by doing this you are implicitly stating that these people are more deserving than someone coming from some other place by right of birth. You may as well agitate for the divine right of kings and the reinstatement of the monarchy if you view this as an acceptable path to tread.

Also, it seems to me that actually making immigration from and to anywhere on the planet would pretty much force governments to actually compete with each other, a country in which nobody wants to live is not a country that will stick around for long if everyone is free to leave at their choosing. Wouldn't this be a net positive, really?

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#207

Post by lutorm » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 4:50 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #170

lutorm wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the unemployed people, that's who...

If an unemployed person loses out to an immigrant (legal or illegal), clearly there's a reason. I'd rather have jobs filled with better people than pander to people who are currently more eligible solely because they had the luck to be born in a certain place at a certain time.

Sure, all else being constant, you want jobs to be filled by the best people available. More likely, the market will see to it that the best people per funds spent are employed, resulting in a race to the bottom. And there are downsides and costs to having millions of unemployed, too. You'll end up paying for them one way or another, through unemployment benefits or prisons.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#208

Post by dennisgorelik » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 4:51 AM UTC

gdilla wrote: post #183

Go wait in line, Vargas. You ain't special. You think because we should feel sorry for you, that you deserve a greencard or legalization or whatever? Do you know the shit LEGAL immigrants have to go through to get and stay here? What makes you so damn special to skip the fucking line? I waited 7 fucking years for my greencard - all the while working and paying more taxes than you and any goddamn teabagger alive. I wa…

gdilla, by pointing Vargas to the end of the line you are shooting yourself in the foot. You are imagining that if Vargas would get green card your wait time would be longer. It's not the case. If it would be easier for illegal immigrants to get green cards, it would be even easier to make a compelling case for you and your wife. Why do you think that number of granted green cards per year is a fixed amount? It's not. It can change any time when society is ready for that. Help the society to make that change.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#209

Post by lutorm » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 4:56 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #179

lutorm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? "Anybody" (i.e. excluding terrorists, nazis, communists, HIV-positives, and other comparatively small segments of the population) can become a US permanent resident by marrying a US citizen unless they are present in the US illegally. Then the case is more complicated, but in many cases you are still eligible.

Wait, the US excludes people from residency for their political beliefs?

Only if they are the wrong ones... Joke aside, I don't think you're automatically excluded, but you do have to answer yes or no as to whether you are or have been affiliated with said groups on the application form.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#210

Post by ajays » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 5:08 AM UTC

lutorm wrote: post #74

lupatus wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But, he was not a minor or forced against his will when he decided to check the citizen box on the I-9, or when he decided to pursue a writing career in New York instead of Manilla, or every time he decided as an adult to stay in the USA while knowing he was here illegally.

I suppose if you suddenly were to find out that you were actually illegally present in the U.S., you'd be a good, law-abiding noncitizen and cheerfully go back to the country you don't know?

I'd dispute the "country you don't know" part. He keeps using the Filipino language. Having spent 12 years there, he isn't exactly a stranger. If, as a young 12-year old, he could adapt to the US (a country he _really_ didn't know), then why can't he, an educated and grown adult, adapt to the Philippines, a country where he grew up, whose language he speaks, and where he still has relatives (mom)??

This "country they don't know" falsehood is parroted by some people, and I find it very disingenuous. You don't have to lie to make your case. People immigrate to the US from other countries at all ages, and get along just fine. There's no reason that an American can't immigrate to his/her place of birth either. Growing up American doesn't make a person dumb, you know.