My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant • Hacker News Board

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#131

Post by kelnos » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 12:14 AM UTC

fastfinner wrote: post #117

lutorm wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose if you suddenly were to find out that you were actually illegally present in the U.S., you'd be a good, law-abiding noncitizen and cheerfully go back to the country you don't know?

If a person's answer to this question is "no, I'd stay, even after I realize that I am breaking the laws of the country", I don't know how that person can expect sympathy after being busted (or "coming out").

I think it's totally fair to expect sympathy. I'm very sympathetic toward this guy, and as you can see from this HN thread, the majority of posters are as well.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#132

Post by BadassFractal » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 12:18 AM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #99

phillmv wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried Canada? We're kind of like the US, but better.

To expand on the point: skilled immigrants in Canada gain permanent residency (aka the equivalent of the green card) immediately upon entry. You can work for anyone, in any field, without restriction. You have health care, education, and all of the benefits of anyone else except the vote. And that only takes three years of continuous residency. Compare with the US: must make the H-1B quota, wait years, apply for Gree…

Whoa, what's this thing about gaining permanent residency in Canada if you're skilled? You make it sound too easy. Define skilled?

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#133

Post by kelnos » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 12:23 AM UTC

reddweb wrote: post #120

kelnos wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in this case, punish whom? Vargas? He was 12 when all this happened, had no say in the matter, and didn't really know what was going on until he turned 16. What should he have done then? Turned himself in as an illegal immigrant?

That argument can be taken advantage of in lot of situations. I empatize with vargas but unfortunately, as the lawyer said, he needs to get back in line - legally. He committed 70% of the fraud after turning 16. He is not kid anymore, and be responsible for his situation/actions. What about legal alien kids who come (sent by parents) here legally for undergrad studies...pay upto 100K in tuition fees, and be sent back…

What about legal alien kids who come (sent by parents) here legally for undergrad studies...pay upto 100K in tuition fees, and be sent back if can't get job visa or other legal immigration problems? Wouldn't you argue, this kid knows nothing , he was shown the american dream, he deserves greencard/citizenship?

This is just further evidence that the system is terribly broken. And, of course, in this case the kid getting sent home still has the illegal immigration option. He/she's no worse off than someone like Vargas, though residing illegally is probably more difficult when you're already on file with the gov't.

There is law for a reason

So you say. Clearly it's not working out very well, or situations like this (and many others) wouldn't pop up so often, and immigration reform wouldn't be a hot-button issue of national importance.

... and 300 millions American citizens and legal aliens abide by it. Do you want make all of them feel idiots?

They can feel however they want to feel; I don't particularly care. They do have one huge benefit over Vargas' situation: they don't live in fear every day that someone will find out about them and they'll get sent back to their birth country.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#134

Post by davepage » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 12:27 AM UTC

reddweb wrote: post #86

nick-dap wrote: post #51

I'm in the same boat. It's been difficult. I cannot express how grateful I am to Jose Vargas for writing this story. I was brought here as a kid 13 years ago. I'm 24 now. I also graduated from a "top" university -- like that matters. I guess my parents weren't smart enough to get a fake social security card for me back then, I wish they were. I've also been fighting for the Dream Act for what feels like an eternity.…

Its simple. Do you implement the LAW ? or let law hijacked by emotions/plight? The legal aliens are idiots?. There are literally billions of people living below poverty line, who will sacrifice everything just to come to America - legally!!! Hardships, emotions and empathy has no place when you take into account 300 million citizens who are legally bound to support the system (tax, servcies, public shcools, hopsitals…

So, here we have a philosophical issue: tribe or meritocracy. Considering the historically horrible results with tribalism, meritocracy is best. Which means, open the borders. If some lazy spoiled Americans lose their jobs to better skilled immigrants, all the better. That's what this country is about.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#135

Post by lutorm » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 12:32 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #116

lutorm wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's true. But it's hard to see how that would not be very disruptive.

A lot of things are disruptive. Doesn't make them bad or undesirable. We talk about "disruptive" new technologies here on HN all the time and how the best progress is made by disrupting the status quo. I won't claim that all disruption is good, but who's to say a little disruption in the immigration world wouldn't be?

All the unemployed people, that's who...

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#136

Post by lutorm » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 12:35 AM UTC

jeffreymcmanus wrote: post #123

lutorm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? "Anybody" (i.e. excluding terrorists, nazis, communists, HIV-positives, and other comparatively small segments of the population) can become a US permanent resident by marrying a US citizen unless they are present in the US illegally. Then the case is more complicated, but in many cases you are still eligible.

Please reread, I said "this path to permanent residency," not "the only path". You can become a permanent resident by getting married, but the process isn't straightforward. The draconian requirement that the newly-married couple leave the US reduces some fraud, I'm sure, but it also causes an enormous amount of disruption for the 99% of legitimately married couples who have families and livelihoods within the US.

"This path" is what I don't understand what you're talking about. I'm a non-American who married a US citizen, and I just got my green card. There was no requirement that we leave for any amount of time. The whole process took 5 months and was about as painless as anything dealing with the USCIS could possibly be.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#137

Post by phillmv » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 12:36 AM UTC

fastfinner wrote: post #105

phillmv wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the people we should have compassion for are the people who are trying to do things the right way but running into headaches. Those are the people we should make things easier for, not the people who are willing to break the law to get what they want. >I don't understand why it's so controversial among the pro-immigration crowd to say that people shouldn't come here illegally. It's because the official green…

"Kicking out the people who are already in the country doesn't achieve anything other than waste more money and ruin more lives." It achieves fairness about who gets in. Rules may need to be revised, etc. No arguments here. But while the revision is taking place or not taking place the rules need to be followed .

Well, no, this is assuming the problem gets fixed and most of the undocumented people living in the US suddenly become eligible.

If a rule is unjust to begin with, I don't see how being fair in its application is all that paramount. Insert any number of parallels to the War on Drugs here.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#138

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 12:36 AM UTC

jeffreymcmanus wrote: post #123

lutorm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? "Anybody" (i.e. excluding terrorists, nazis, communists, HIV-positives, and other comparatively small segments of the population) can become a US permanent resident by marrying a US citizen unless they are present in the US illegally. Then the case is more complicated, but in many cases you are still eligible.

Please reread, I said "this path to permanent residency," not "the only path". You can become a permanent resident by getting married, but the process isn't straightforward. The draconian requirement that the newly-married couple leave the US reduces some fraud, I'm sure, but it also causes an enormous amount of disruption for the 99% of legitimately married couples who have families and livelihoods within the US.

Jeffrey, there is no such requirement. Someone who marries an American cannot immediately adjust to permanent resident status, but is (typically) granted conditional residence, which is in practice the same thing except that it can be easily revoked if it looks like the marriage is a sham. After 2 years the not-so-newlyweds can (in fact, must) apply to have the conditional status removed, at which point the foreign spouse becomes a permanent resident. This is almost always a formality except in cases of marriage fraud or involvement in criminal activity. There is no requirement to leave the country. In fact, for people who have been married longer than 2 years or living together a long time, USCIS will sometimes waive the conditional status (and thus the fee to have lifted later) because they have prima facie evidence of a bona fide relationship. It's only in cases where they have serious doubts about the honesty of the applicant that they require the couple to leave the US and wait several years to reapply.

IANAL but you are definitely misinformed about this, and should not allow it to interfere with your love life.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#139

Post by lupatus » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 12:38 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #130

lupatus wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those downvoting this comment, why? Do you disagree that nations are basically large families? Am I in the wrong to want to hypothetically seek out my biological family or nation of origin? Or, do you disagree with my viewpoint and want me to shut up?

I didn't downvote you, but yes, I do disagree that nations are large families. And I think the analogy is flawed and attempts to emotionally twist the situation in favor of your conclusion.

Up until a few years ago I would have agreed with you. But, then I started studying genealogy and history and I had to revisit just what the definition of a nation is. Wikipedia states that a nation refers "... to a community of people who share a common territory and government; and who often share a common language, race, descent, and/or history." The USA is comprised of a community of people who, except for recent immigrants, are mostly distantly related. For example, 25% of USA citizens claim descent from the Pilgrims. Also, Obama and Cheney are eighth cousins. My personal ancestors have been here for nearly 400 years. USA citizens are distantly related. The same holds true, and probably more so, for other nations around the world.

Immigration is the official process of adoption into this large family. Illegal immigrants are masquerading as family members. Yeah, the situation sucks for this guy, but he has not gone through the official adoption process either. Instead, he wants us to think that it is cool that he has been knowingly stealing opportunities from legit members of the American family, and that gall, that cheating behavior, just doesn't sit right with me.

I cannot condone it.

Re: My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant

#140

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Jun 23, 2011, 12:38 AM UTC

lutorm wrote: post #77

jeffreymcmanus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the fallacies about immigration is that anybody can become a permanent resident by marrying a citizen. This path to permanent residency was basically choked off in the 1980s by requiring that the newlywed couple leave the country for a few years before they're allowed to come back to the US to live, and even then, it's not certain that the government will let it happen. This means that if I happen to fall in l…

Huh? "Anybody" (i.e. excluding terrorists, nazis, communists, HIV-positives, and other comparatively small segments of the population) can become a US permanent resident by marrying a US citizen unless they are present in the US illegally. Then the case is more complicated, but in many cases you are still eligible.

FYI, the HIV+ exclusion was abolished 18 months ago. It is no longer a barrier to entry or adjustment of status.