Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#291

Post by New_California » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

bonestamp2 wrote: post #85

oefrha wrote: post #72

A good reminder that Bitcoin runs on cheap renewables is BS. See also miners buying gas power plants in New York.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26828479

Also a good time to point out that there are energy efficient blockchains that work differently from bitcoin -- not all crypto is as power hungry (some use disk space, or memory, or even just the tokens themselves to replace bitcoin's proof of work model).

The goal is to maximize immutability, not minimize energy usage. Energy expenditure is what roots Bitcoin in reality and what protects against changes (you would have to expand even more energy to change).

Other blockchains are relatively easy to mutate and hence not good candidates for the World's reserve currencies.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#292

Post by exdsq » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

New_California wrote: post #291

bonestamp2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a good time to point out that there are energy efficient blockchains that work differently from bitcoin -- not all crypto is as power hungry (some use disk space, or memory, or even just the tokens themselves to replace bitcoin's proof of work model).

The goal is to maximize immutability, not minimize energy usage. Energy expenditure is what roots Bitcoin in reality and what protects against changes (you would have to expand even more energy to change). Other blockchains are relatively easy to mutate and hence not good candidates for the World's reserve currencies.

Other blockchains using proof-of-stake over proof-of-work are not ‘relatively easy to mutate’ for any definition of easy. Can you point a single occurrence of this happening on a top 30 market cap PoS crypto, such as Cardano, Tezos, or Algorand?

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#293

Post by Majromax » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

betterunix2 wrote: post #263

Majromax wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is Bitcoin a boon to renewables? Bitcoin consumes energy, and that energy is not being used for other things. The utopian view is that not all energy is currently being used for other things. On grids with heavy penetration of renewables, peak production can overwhelm demand, causing bulk power to become effectively free. In a suitably regulated environment, bitcoin or an equivalent could act as a last-resort u…

...or we could work on better energy storage and distribution technologies and move away from "base load" approaches to power generation. I am also not seeing how Bitcoin, which consumes power regardless of whether or not there is any excess, helps in any way. Why do you think Bitcoin miners would shut their operations down during periods of high demand in any regulatory environment, other than one which specifically…

> or we could work on better energy storage and distribution technologies

That's a "both and" issue. An energy generator could hypothetically mine cryptocurrencies to buffer their excess-power periods right now with little capital investment, whereas developing new storage technology is an expensive and long-term problem.

> Why do you think Bitcoin miners would shut their operations down during periods of high demand in any regulatory environment

A non-criminal bitcoin miner (the argument applies to any other proof-of-work coin in the same way) will reduce their mining effort if the marginal cost of mining (the power bill) is larger than the reward from doing so (mining rewards plus transaction fees).

The problem then is one of value, but cryptocurrency valuations aren't fixed. If the price of bitcoin durably collapses for some reason, miners will turn off their rigs and the energy cost per coin will fall. (Note that I'm not a "bitcoin bull," but I also know better than to predict future prices with false confidence.)

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#294

Post by akira2501 » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

New_California wrote: post #285

impulser_ wrote: post #46

Is bitcoin really decentralized if mining and nodes are centralized?

Bitcoin is meaningfully decentralized because miners alone do not decide the fate of Bitcoin - there are also users, businesses, and developers as major actros. The 51%++ actor cannot kill Bitcoin, only cause inconvenience. The worst that could happen is a successful DoS that would force a hard fork to another PoW algorithm. PS1 The full nodes are actually very well decentralized. PS2 The physical hash power is skewe…

How much of that still holds true after all 21.6 million coins have been mined?

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#295

Post by ineedasername » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

New_California wrote: post #291

bonestamp2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a good time to point out that there are energy efficient blockchains that work differently from bitcoin -- not all crypto is as power hungry (some use disk space, or memory, or even just the tokens themselves to replace bitcoin's proof of work model).

The goal is to maximize immutability, not minimize energy usage. Energy expenditure is what roots Bitcoin in reality and what protects against changes (you would have to expand even more energy to change). Other blockchains are relatively easy to mutate and hence not good candidates for the World's reserve currencies.

Energy expenditure is what roots Bitcoin in reality

"Reality" is itself a fairly mutable concept if you're using that term to a refer to system that produces abstract "coins" with values that float against other world currencies in a system of finance that itself consists of multiple layers of indirection that evolved to solve the scaling problems of direct bartering.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#296

Post by dehrmann » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

RotaryTelephone wrote: post #273

dehrmann wrote: post #84

One of the reasons I'm bearish on Bitcoin in the long term is there are systemic risks like this around miners.

My family has been bearish on the dollar since the 70s. I'm typing this from a computer at a local library.

Even if you're bearish on the dollar, owning assets is still reasonable, and most millionaires don't just hold cash. Real estate (foreign and domestic) and equities have done will since the 70's.

The other difference is Bitcoin is less like a currency and more like baseball cards in how people are using it. It's already failed as a currency because its price is too unstable.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#297

Post by ineedasername » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

disruptalot wrote: post #175

pmlnr wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So point them out, please. One that is efficient on all levels.

The reader will find dozens of suggestion in this thread about how coin X is more "efficient". Note that efficiency would mean producing the same properties but with less resources. Not merely using less resources. While experimentation is certainly desired, it's a fallacy that any coin has actually reproduced bitcoin in a more efficient way. To name a couple, - Bitcoin had what some call an "immaculate conception" w…

it's a fallacy that any coin has actually reproduced bitcoin in a more efficient way

It's a fallacy to consider bitcoin as an apriori better system than either traditional currencies or other coins when it has failed to achieve the hoped-for results.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#298

Post by fspeech » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

rfoo wrote: post #121

delecti wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few steps in between, but if the chain of events really is: coal mine accidents > coal shortage > power blackouts > drop in bitcoin mining, then the end result is effectively they were indeed slaving away for bitcoin.

No. I'm a native Chinese and from my understanding (read between lines and talking to local friends), the situation is: 1. Coal mine accidents. 2. Someone said "stop mining, make sure all the mine pass security check". Of course they mean coal mining. 3. Government officers confuse "mining coal" and "mining Bitcoin", decided to stop both just because they both have a "mine" word in name. It's quite hilarious how they…

Doesn't bitcoin mining run on cheap surplus electricity? If they shut down the coal mines the power generation will eventually be impacted. They likely want to shut down bitcoin mining before impacting supply to other users, as bitcoin miners operate in the grey area.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#299

Post by lofi_lory » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #254

lofi_lory wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heat generation really is the stupidest way of doing things. With things like storage, at least you can reuse it after the fact. Tho, all these systems require some ressource scarcity and will inherently maintain/promote scarcity. This is completely unacceptable in the coming years. People don't realize how much we need to cut back on natural ressource extraction and energy expenditure. Out whole world is build on ma…

> Heat generation really is the stupidest way of doing things. With things like storage, at least you can reuse it after the fact. For what it's worth - something like a house heating unit could easily be done by a coin miner, and there have been such projects presented on Reddit and HN before.

This doesn't matter at all. It's a flaw in principle, which will sooner or later manifest. This is the case for any definition of "work" the system encodes, that comes down to the fatalistic reductionism of "increasing entropy". At some point your house becomes an oven, while the systems starts folding random amino acid chains.

'Work' cannot be losslessly reduced to heat generation and market value does not represent contribution to human welfare.

It's the fallacy of conflating correlation with causation, when the free market economic systems aligns with human interests for a moment. And PoW crypto currencies aim for giving up all governance control to this fallacy. Earth becoming absolutely oxidized into a lifeless rock a valid possible equilibrium for free market economic systems.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#300

Post by VectorLock » Sun, Apr 18, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

lofi_lory wrote: post #234

bonestamp2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a good time to point out that there are energy efficient blockchains that work differently from bitcoin -- not all crypto is as power hungry (some use disk space, or memory, or even just the tokens themselves to replace bitcoin's proof of work model).

Heat generation really is the stupidest way of doing things. With things like storage, at least you can reuse it after the fact. Tho, all these systems require some ressource scarcity and will inherently maintain/promote scarcity. This is completely unacceptable in the coming years. People don't realize how much we need to cut back on natural ressource extraction and energy expenditure. Out whole world is build on ma…

Thats why the only cryptocurrency that really appeals to me now is Chia with its Proof of Space. Not zero power usage, but better, and I like the design goals and its approach.