Live data from Hacker News

Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

madned.substack.com

471–480 of 684 posts

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#471
These seem to be mostly accounts of bonuses for software developers or other, typically salary positions.

(As an aside - I wonder whether this more correctly reflects companies making people "salary" as a means to pay them less overall for working long hours. I've seen "salary" be given to people making less than 33k usd/year, pre-minimum wage increases. Might be a rarity on HN.)

My takeaway has been that these incentive schedules aren't properly implemented. Also, people get very toxic if they see others making more or less pay than themselves. Yearly bonuses based on global factors are nice, but probably are too far from what an individual adds to the business to properly impact their work effort. You want the worker doing marginal thinking with marginal incentives - i.e. the classic paying car salespeople a commission on each sale. This is clearly a more difficult calculation for the IT field.

One idea - pay the bonus per pay period. This addresses people sticking around for a once per year bonus and then quitting. It could be based on the last year's (or quarter's - depending on the business) figures, for instance. Maybe have it be known the full, remaining bonus will be paid out if the person leaves on great terms during the year. i.e. Absolutely no one in your department - not even the custodian staff - has a negative thing to say about your performance.

Another - rethink paying people salary. Salaried employees can be pushed to work OT. But if people can make 1.5x pay for doing demonstrably important work (say, presenting it during the next team meeting) then they'll naturally work those additional hours. It's up to the business to figure out the hourly pay rate correctly, of course. Also, pushing people to work OT as a standard practice generates lots of toxic behavior - another reason to not use that as a standard practice.

Another - pick a metric that definitively impacts your business and is easily measured and high visibility. Use that to determine the next pay period's bonus. i.e. "Everyone in the IT department gets a $300 bonus if system uptime is greater than 98% for the previous two weeks. The bonus decreases by 1% for every percent decrease in uptime from 98% over the preceding two weeks. i.e. you're getting (100%-18%) of the 300$ if the uptime was more like 80% the last two weeks.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#472
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also standard works on this are: Robert D. Austin, Measuring and Managing Performance in Organizations (1996). This book coined the term "measurement dysfunction" to describe how reward structures work against company goals. And Alfie Kohn's 1993 article in Harvard Business Review where he summarizes decades of motivational research (also citing Herzberg), concluding that giving bonuses to staff is usually a bad idea…

I'd also suggest the book Drive about motivation and how economic compensation can have counterproductive effects. Edit: Oh, and dear Lord how could I forget Deming?! Most of the time we think we're measuring individual performance we're really measuring noise. And it's not individual performance but organisational performance that matters anyway.

Yep, Red Beads [0].

The system determines performance. Measuring variation within statistical process control and attributing it to individual effort is a mistake that keeps being made.

Many have made the effort to translate these ideas to knowledge work, so it's not like the manufacturing context is holding this concept back from being understood.

[0] https://deming.org/lessons-from-the-red-bead-experiment-with...

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#473
There's a real mischaracterization / straw man mentioned in some of the comments here about set bonuses, which is different from the special bonus structure in the OP.

A set bonus is part of your employment compensation. It's not a "nice to have". If the company hits its goals and you perform well, you are supposed to get it. When this is broken, that's a problem, and it indicates a deception by the company.

Yes, if you want you could just increase all salaries by that much and not worry about the bonuses. The reason they come in a bonus structure is two-fold: so the company can not pay it out if they don't hit goals; because management has the idea that it will make people work harder. Both of these reasons serve the company alone, don't act like this is a case of employees feeling entitled.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#474
post #17

When I worked at eBay, we had a bonus program based on company revenue. It was around 6% of your salary max and managers got around 25% max based on the same formula. For the first few years, you could count on getting a max bonus every quarter. To the point where most everyone who worked there had always gotten one. And the one quarter, we didn't get the max bonus. In fact, I don't think we got it all. People scream…

I think bonuses can work as long as they are an actual bonus. The base salary needs to be correct first. I worked at one place where the base salary was lower, but the bonus made up for it and it was super stressful. I ended up negotiating for a higher base.

One upside I've seen with company performance bonuses is that it can (not always) force even a private company to share more information with employees. This is useful for knowing the general health of the company. Even if the company shares nothing, if bonuses drop significantly or go away that's a clear signal of problems. All too often I see stories of people getting laid off and having no clue it was coming.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#475
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you do really good can you take a year off? If not, then it’s still not unlimited. I’d like my salary and benefits be quantified in my contract rather than “manager discretion” which can go south in a hurry if you have a terrible manager.

In reality I saw employee #1 switch to a different project and take 3 months off. Seems reasonable. I was happy taking a Friday off here and there when I needed and taking weeks off when I moved. This was in addition to my regular vacations prior to the pandemic. Everyone anti-unlimited PTO seems to be completely missing the forest for the trees. It’s nice to be respected and trusted to do your work. It’s also nice t…

> If I do my job; I can take some time off.

What does it mean to "do your job"?

At every place I've worked there was an infinite amount of job to be done. If I were to take 4 months off I would do less of it than if I've taken 1 month.

So that just shifts the conversation from "how much vacation you have" to "what amount of work is considered enough". Which doesn't seem all that different to me, or at least it would not have been at any place I've worked at.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 dozen krispy kreme glazed donuts is like $8

Isn't that a bit like evaluating the cost of coffee based on starbucks prices? We also don't know how recent this story is. When I was a kid, in the days before gentrification and gourmet-everything, there was a doughnut shop nearby that was like $2 for a dozen. It was way cheaper than regular fast food. I remember thinking what a great discovery it was until I found I couldn't handle more than a couple of them befor…

Are doughnuts different in America to other parts of the world? I couldn't imagine ever eating 12 Aussie-style doughnuts in 1 sitting, unless it was some sort of eating competition. It'd be like eating 3 hamburgers or 6 hot dogs.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#477

> I remember being in shouting matches with our signal integrity team about among other things, how many capacitors we needed. I think the place where big companies go wrong is by having teams that are too specialized. If you're the Signal Integrity team, the only thing you care about is signal integrity. You should just say no to anything but the most conservative arrangement possible; you're responsible for Signal…

That's true but what can you do about it? It's a direct consequence of building large/complex products. To me it seems that you're just advocating for only building small/simple products. Typically you have a chief engineering team that is in charge to strike that balance, and drive the compromises with all the specialists.

Have Special Teams & Product Teams.

Special Teams don't get ownership of anything, can't veto anything. They're there to answer any and all questions from the product team and to set the stage for how the product team may solve a challenge (i.e. present a menu of relevant approaches with expert commentary on the applicability to the problem, but implementation is the product team's job).

This limbo position helps tamp down on the prestige of a Special Team relative to Product while still attempting to harness expert value.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#478

> We are lucky enough to have a regular bonus program even now at work, it’s been going on for years. Every time it is handed out my boss will say something like, “so we had a good bonus this time, but don’t count on it in the future.” "Good night, Westley. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."

I'm a simple man. I see Princess Bride reference, I upvote.

What can I say, it seemed perfectly cromulent.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#479
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morally you are entitled to zero, so it's still a good deal to take whatever you are offered. It's not like you both did an equal amount of work. You're not being taken advantage of.

Which is exactly why I'm comfortable turning it down if it's not equal. I didn't lose anything. Neither person did any work so I don't understand your point. Why would you offer someone less than half the money when you are no more entitled to it than them? The only reasons I can think of is to take advantage of them settling for less, or because you think you are entitled to more money. Both of which are morally wro…

You write as if "equal" is the objective correct way to distribute.

It is a really fun experiment which they replicated in different cultures and got vastly different results. Even both extremes of the spectrum are good ways to describe expected behaviour in some cultures.

In some places, the first person would take all the money, and the second would happily accept that split. He could have been first after all and would have done the same thing. In other places, the first person would give everything to the second, who would still reject this split. Neither wants to receive money 'undeserved' by being lucky in getting first or second.

All participants would describe their local approach as fair, despite the split definitely not being equal.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you pulling a resignation notice as an argument, an experienced boss would instantly know you would not be an asset he could rely on even mid-term, so his best option from a business perspective would be giving you no bonus at all (or the original one), and immediately starting to look for a replacement (and probably firing you).

This is an employer-employee power relationship. In general the employer has the power, but it cuts both ways, to some extent. Pulling a resignation notice shows that relationship to have broken down, probably irrevocably, I agree. But, the employer initially broke the relationship, by not keeping their promise regarding the bonus. The employer (perhaps here the boss's boss) knows they have treated the employee unfai…

> But, the employer initially broke the relationship, by not keeping their promise regarding the bonus.

Or maybe the employee misunderstood the conditions of receiving the bonus. We can't really judge the situation after hearing just one side.

Post reply on HN