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Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

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Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#421

Post by 74d-fe6-2c6 »

serial_dev wrote: post #390
thedrbrian wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Peter Gibbons: You see, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't even care. >Bob Porter: Don't- don't care? >Peter Gibbons: It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation? Before I started working at MASSIVE CORP I thought Office Space was a comedy.....

When I come to the "I just don't even care" state, I start looking for another job. I was at a startup company that in my opinion got a great idea and with enough focus, we could have been successful. I always tried to think about the product, the impact, the roadmap, the quality... And after some time I realized that I just annoy the founders and I care and worry more about things then they do. So I decided to care…

> On the other hand, when you just go in to work, do a reasonable amount of effort, then you can work better with others with less stress, and in the end, who cares about "those few extra units"?

That's exactly my MO. The extent to which many people start to overidentify with their job is almost comical. If they are lucky it may actually pay off at least. But more likely than not they are just deferring the inevitable conclusion that work is at the end of the day just a (hopefully enjoyable) waste of time so you can afford living.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#422

Post by erikprotagonist »

Around the same timeframe as the Op (late 1990s) I worked for a no longer existing IT company where management some time before I started had the brilliant idea to pay sales bonuses based on forecasted sales. If you didn't make the sales you had to pay back the bonus on your next monthly pay.

Needless to say this really put the pressure on sales to get the contract signed - feasibility or profit margin be damned. Turnover in sales was really big as well, but then the company went from more than 300 staff to about 60 in the 2.5 years I worked there.

The company also had a matrix organization, where everyone in middle management had two bosses, one national, and one international. At one point my then boss got a new title and responsibilities on a Monday, for it to be changed to something else on the following Wednesday.

At least working there was quite educational.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#423

Post by einpoklum »

The author would have you believe that it's an issue of personal morals, outlook and psychology.

I would say that these kinds of programs are manipulate and exploitative (beyond how salaried work is exploitative fundamentally). In the author's situation I would probably say I'm giving up on the bonus from the get-go; would not sacrifice any hours of sleep; and would just try to do a good job.

... or rather, I'd probably redouble my efforts to get people to unionize.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#424

Post by einpoklum »

jedberg wrote: post #17

When I worked at eBay, we had a bonus program based on company revenue. It was around 6% of your salary max and managers got around 25% max based on the same formula. For the first few years, you could count on getting a max bonus every quarter. To the point where most everyone who worked there had always gotten one. And the one quarter, we didn't get the max bonus. In fact, I don't think we got it all. People scream…

> they spent a lot of time explaining that bonuses weren't guaranteed.

In Israeli labor law, if an employee repeatedly gets the same bonus regardless of any concrete criteria, then that bonus is considered as part of that employee's salary as though it had been part of the contract. This is due to many employers calling a part of the salary a "bonus" so as to avoid it counting towards retirement benefits and other allowances; and for the flexibility of being able to cut salaries without ostensibly having done so.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#425

Post by mijamo »

lelanthran wrote: post #409
Sebb767 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But using your money to buy happiness after your ten hour work Saturday is not going to be a big success, either. Yes, it does not replace money, but for some people it is worth more to feel happy at work than to receive a bit more money.

> But using your money to buy happiness after your ten hour work Saturday is not going to be a big success, either. It depends. If working 10-hour Saturdays for a year results in me buying a yacht, you can be sure that actual real money bought the happiness that came with my yacht. It's all a tradeoff and for some things you are unlikely to get the big payoff without a risk involved. Determining where your personal b…

If you have a reasonably high income, I think the tradeof is actually never worth it, because the marginal happiness from money gets so low. Sure I could buy a yacht but that's not going to make me much happier. Buying a mansion by the sea would not really make me much happier either. Sure I might do it if I had the money because why not but that would not accept to work on weekends for a few years to get it even if it was guaranteed.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#426

Post by fighterpilot »

rightbyte wrote: post #402
fighterpilot wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but anything outside of a salary for compensation is just a bad idea. In the hedge fund industry, you can't be a successful firm without a bonus compensation model. - The profit is usual attributable exactly to specific people. If they don't get paid their share of what they brought in, they'll quit and go elsewhere where they can be paid their share, and you'll be left with all the worst people. - Some years are s…

> If they don't get paid their share of what they brought in, they'll quit and go elsewhere where they can be paid their share, and you'll be left with all the worst people. You are selecting for lucky people that way not competent.

To a large extent I agree. It'll come down to the type of strat they're running. If it's a very short holding period, performance is more correlated with skill, and the bonus should therefore be more correlated with individual performance.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#427

Post by einpoklum »

greggman3 wrote: post #147
jedberg wrote: post #17

When I worked at eBay, we had a bonus program based on company revenue. It was around 6% of your salary max and managers got around 25% max based on the same formula. For the first few years, you could count on getting a max bonus every quarter. To the point where most everyone who worked there had always gotten one. And the one quarter, we didn't get the max bonus. In fact, I don't think we got it all. People scream…

Honest question, what's a reasonable solution for a small company (since it's easier to do thought experiments on a small company). You're a business owner. You hire 3 people. You pay them salaries. That year the company does really well. You want to thank your employees. You're not going to just give them raises because there's no guarantee you'll do as well next year It sounds by Netflix logic you should just keep…

Well, why don't you consult them? First set aside the amount of money you were thinking of paying. Now think of some options, e.g.:

* Paying the bonus.

* Improving office amenities.

* Buying each employee an expensive present.

* Funding a family vacation for each employee.

* Making a sizable donation to a worthy cause (collectively or for each employee).

* etc.

Then have a meeting with them, and ask them which they would prefer. Try to reach a consensus they all say they can live with.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#428

Post by ZephyrBlu »

ascorbic wrote: post #283
alienthrowaway wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is something buried deeply in our minds that recoils at being treated unfairly. I have a good job, the pay is decent, the work is interesting - but I'm in the process of looking for a different job because I didn't get a promotion. Some junior members on my team did get them though, and it feels unfair (I absolutely have no idea if they don't deserve it, and I like them as team mates). However, I had previously…

There's a famous psychological experiment where people are split into pairs and given a pot of cash to share. One person decides how it should be apportioned, and the other decides whether to accept that share. If they reject it, neither person receives any money. The logical decision is to always accept the money, because a small amount is still better than nothing. However people don't do that. At a certain point,…

> The logical decision is to always accept the money, because a small amount is still better than nothing

This is a moral decision for me, not a logical one. Someone trying to make you accept an unequal portion is 100% trying to take advantage of you.

The only situation I would accept an unequal share is if the portion was significant enough for the fact that it's unequal to not matter.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#429

Post by papito »

donw wrote: post #161
m463 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is also why I think it is silly for startups to provide too many perks Should the opposite be true as well? Startup employees going home at 5 and fighting unreasonable schedules?

> Startup employees going home at 5 and fighting unreasonable schedules? Absolutely. First, overwork doesn't lead to more productivity for knowledge workers. You get to pay that piper one way or another in the end. Second, back in the day, if your company was acquired for multiple billions, you had a pretty good shot at a life-changing infusion of cash. Nowadays, stock options given to employees often end up being wo…

Equity is just another way to not give you money in most cases. Unless you are at the founding level, wasting years of your life for just a few extra thousand dollars? Imagine if you were getting paid $150K instead of $100K + options. In three years, do you think your options would yield $150,000 in case of a liquidity event, in the BEST case scenario?

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#430

Post by benhurmarcel »

jrockway wrote: post #40

> I remember being in shouting matches with our signal integrity team about among other things, how many capacitors we needed. I think the place where big companies go wrong is by having teams that are too specialized. If you're the Signal Integrity team, the only thing you care about is signal integrity. You should just say no to anything but the most conservative arrangement possible; you're responsible for Signal…

That's true but what can you do about it? It's a direct consequence of building large/complex products. To me it seems that you're just advocating for only building small/simple products.

Typically you have a chief engineering team that is in charge to strike that balance, and drive the compromises with all the specialists.

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