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Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

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Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#451

Post by kaba0 »

forgingahead wrote: post #443
kaba0 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boss-employee relationship goes both ways. They pay me because of my work/because I am valuable. From the story, the poster was valuable (otherwise the boss would not have paid him/her out). > Employees are not the top of the totem pole, there are always other factors that people making these decisions have to consider And that is entirely his/her thing. If I was promised this and that for a given task, I should be g…

"Value" does not just comprise of "coding ability". "Attitude" is a key part of it, and I guarantee you the vast majority of all hiring managers everywhere would eliminate a candidate if they demonstrated high entitlement during the interview process. If they somehow get hired because that quality was hidden somehow during the interview process, the moment it surfaced, there would be behind-the-scenes discussions on…

> "Attitude" is a key part of it, and I guarantee you the vast majority of all hiring managers everywhere would eliminate a candidate if they demonstrated high entitlement during the interview process.

I do agree with you that not only technical abilities are considered, for good reason. But not standing up for ourselves and letting us being bullied and exploited by higher ups is not an attitude in my book. We may have read the story very differently, and of course we only got one viewpoint on what happened. But I think you would agree that there are exploitive bosses (just as there are many great leaders), and there are many who simply can’t stand up for themselves in a corporate environment.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#452

Post by sokoloff »

sjwright wrote: post #313
sokoloff wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make a donation in someone's name, you get the tax deduction, not them. Google couldn't "pay" the employees in some non-taxable form and then let the employees take the $1000 deduction even if they wanted to (which they don't).

That’s my point. The donation is financially a corporate donation, but is being marketed to the employee as a perk of their employment. That it’s “their” donation.

If I care about cause XYZ and as part of my employment, my company gives $1000 to a charity that I picked which supports cause XYZ, that absolutely has value to me.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#453

Post by freeflight »

barry-cotter wrote: post #287
dmarlow wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Overwork sucks but if you have evidence that it’s bad for productivity please cite it. Seriously? Of all things, something so obvious like this needs needs citation?

Feel free to name any category of professional where working over 40 hours a week isn’t quite normal. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, professors. It sure looks like people who work more than 40 hours a week on average do better than those who don’t. This is not a claim about what I wish was true, but about what actually seems to be true. The actual research on this is scarce to the point of non-existence. It may actuall…

> Feel free to name any category of professional where working over 40 hours a week isn’t quite normal.

Just because something is considered "normal" does not mean that it's actually efficient, or "good".

Certain job sectors, like social jobs, have been chronically overworked and underpaid for pretty much as long as they existed. Even during non-pandemic times burn-out, depression, and suicide rates of people working in healthcare have been way above those of the average population, particularly the people who actually do all the "grunt work" like nurses.

A situation has become much worse during this pandemic, yet remains largely ignored.

> It sure looks like people who work more than 40 hours a week on average do better than those who don’t.

Tell that to people working in logistics, those people delivering you packages the next day. Ask them how many hours they work and how "well off" they are financially in exchange for giving up large parts of their private life.

As a matter of fact, only two out of the 4 professions you listed are actually considered overworked to a degree of burnout: Physicians and attorneys [0].

The vast majority of the rest of the list is populated by professions that are generally not considered well-earning even when working massive hours: Nurses, social workers, teachers, school principals, police officers, public accounting, fast food or retail.

Most of these professions would have a very lasting and visible impact if they were gone, it would make society overall objectively worse to be missing them, yet somehow society at large still refuses to properly recognize that trough proper financial compensation even with many hours worked at very important tasks.

[0] https://stress.lovetoknow.com/Which_Professionals_are_Prone_...

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#454

Post by Lev1a »

Thorrez wrote: post #275
ryandrake wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what universe are managers averaging less base salary than individual contributors? Aside from a few outlier engineers you see from time to time...

Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Larry Ellison, Mark Zuckerberg each have a $1 salary. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/032315/why-did-larr...

They've already made more money than they or their descendants (probably for generations) will ever need and are very likely also getting capital gains on that wealth through one way or another.

The $1 salary is just posturing.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#455

Post by ianai »

bbarn wrote: post #404

I really don't think the message of this article matches the state of the industry today. Annual bonuses in many companies - especially in the tech industry - are practically considered part of your compensation, and often times base salaries are adjusted to account for them (I've seen as much as 25% of comp laid out in "bonus"). It's a flat out awful structure, as people will legitimately wait until they get that an…

The answer there is to pay out per pay period or something more frequent but sensible for the business case.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#456

Post by bananaface »

diogenescynic wrote: post #18
Negitivefrags wrote: post #6

I actually think bonuses and equity grants are terrible for comapany morale. I've seen it many times, and heard many more stories. On top of the issue in this story, there are others too. For example, if someone wants to leave, but the bonus or vesting is coming up, they will stay, and you don't want people on a project who don't want to be there. As another example I know people who work at companies that are going…

Couldn't disagree more. Want to see employees work hard and be motivated? Give them equity that is a meaningful amount. I know it works for me... I work 10x harder for my current job where I have equity and stock bonuses than at previous jobs that were all salary.

Do you work at a large company?

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#457

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn »

alisonkisk wrote: post #379
TheCapeGreek wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, but in many countries this is done via a 13th payment. To be honest I've never seen 13th payments offered in dev careers, so when I hear some of my Scrum friends demanding it I'm quite surprised since I know they make comparable amounts to me.

"13th payment" is the same as getting paid every two weeks (quite common), but concentrated onto one moment instead of evenly paced.

Is it? I've exclusively seen it refer to the extra monthly salary at some point during the year (typically around December). I guess it depends on the country.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#458

Post by andrepd »

thedrbrian wrote: post #368
chii wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> success is it's own perk aka, equity compensation. Because i sure aint gonna consider it a perk if a CEO (or owners) to get richer, while i just get praise for making the success!

> Peter Gibbons: You see, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't even care. >Bob Porter: Don't- don't care? >Peter Gibbons: It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation? Before I started working at MASSIVE CORP I thought Office Space was a comedy.....

A co-operative model of ownership would solve that problem. Then if the company succeeds, the workers see the rewards.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#459

Post by [deleted] »

atypmorn wrote: post #72

In my last job I worked at a company that paid slightly below the market rate, not including the bonus. At the time I got the job, I didn't realise that I was already being significantly underpaid. I thought it was a bit low but didn't realise the extent of it. So when I got the new job, I was blown over by the huge jump in salary and couldn't be happier. What was better? I was entitled to receive each year up to a 1…

[deleted]

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#460

Post by xyzelement »

"One of our things is that money follows; it does not lead." --Dan Gilbert

In my experience, successful people go work hard and are excited about "the right things" and incur financial benefits along the way. If you are working on the right stuff in the right way, on average you should get good comp/bonuses.

On the flip side, if your only connection to your work is the bonus then you're probably unhappy anyways.

"Sometimes people mistake generosity for not being fair. Generosity is good, entitlement is bad, and they can easily be confused, so be crystal clear on which is which. Decisions should be based on what you believe is warranted" -- Ray Salio

Other comments talk about becoming entitled to bonuses, while they are genuinely discretionary. Broader, people get used to any perks and complain if they go away. This is reality of life on one hand but a flaw in individual thinking on the other.

Personally - as an employee I seek places where I can feel good about the relationship between the company and the people. When that's right, I'm more understanding if bonuses are tight during a lean year or the espresso machine gets downgraded. As an employer I look for the same thing in employees. Why would I hire those who don't care about their work mission in an emotional way? It's not that everyone has to love derivatives trading, it's that the best people find a way to connect and care about what they are working on and be genuinely excited about it and want their team to win. It's a great attitude and I believe it leads people to much more success (and none of this is to say you should stay on a sinking ship or tolerate a bad work situation -- never do that. But there's something to say about maturely weathering the ups and downs of a worthwhile relationship)

In a good company, it's ride or die together and both the company and the people feel that way. If this is crazy to some people I feel they are missing out on some genuine upsides of what work can be like.

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