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Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

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Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#281

Post by mofosyne »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #230
sneak wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I think of when companies offer the passive-aggressive "unlimited vacation time" policy. It's not unlimited, and you shouldn't start off your employer-employee relationship with an obvious lie. Set a policy and make it clear that you are exchanging x dollars for y amount of work.

At some companies they call it “discretionary time off” to make it clear it is between you and your manager but the concept is the same. What many companies fail to do is properly train their managers (1) how to manage this with their reports and (2) to consistently take time off as an example to the people that report to them and to set expectations. Without a program in place to encourage people to use it, people d…

Be interesting if there is a roll of a dice each day that increases if you have too many accumulated working days. If you get hit, you are forced to take that day off.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#282

Post by laurent92 »

m463 wrote: post #90
adamcharnock wrote: post #57

This reminds me of my first job as a developer, age 21. I haven’t shared it before, so here goes... There was a ‘crunch’ coming up at work (i.e. IMHO, bad planning) and so the boss offered everyone a bonus if they performed well. However, the older employees warned me that the criteria for such bonuses were often ill-defined. I therefore pushed for clear achievable objectives. These pre-agreed objectives were promise…

> After that I went freelance. And 15 years later I can say it was the best decision ever. Every time I've left a job, I've been uncertain and conflicted. Every. Time. Then, a week or two into the new job... Every. Time. ...I thought, "Wow! I should have done this sooner!"

I’ve worked for a startup who was giving 866 stock options per month. Had I known they are valued $125 today, I would have:

- Shut up a few more times because I’d trust more the managers, and just followed the stream,

- Accepted to be patient about being a developer on a boring project, because what stressed me was “I don’t know enough to reach the career level that can allow me to ever buy a house.”

- Made 4 millions instead of 1.

I regret leaving and aggressively seeking for a better career, but at the time, things snowballed negatively because I wasn’t getting enough emotional attention. Of course it was a rational choice on both sides, but it was a mistake overall.

On my leaving card, all my colleagues wrote variations of “To the most motivated guy every” – proof that I was putting in decent work, albeit not working cleverly enough.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#283

Post by ascorbic »

alienthrowaway wrote: post #172
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #128

This reminds me of a story back around that time about a guy who was, like, employee 200 at Amazon. He goes to the can, and sees a vestment sheet for the early employees, and realizes that he’s been hired just after people were getting stock grants. Just just prior to him are shortly to become millionaires, and he’s sitting there with a regular job. He quit because of the inequity, and did a tour with this story as a…

There is something buried deeply in our minds that recoils at being treated unfairly. I have a good job, the pay is decent, the work is interesting - but I'm in the process of looking for a different job because I didn't get a promotion. Some junior members on my team did get them though, and it feels unfair (I absolutely have no idea if they don't deserve it, and I like them as team mates). However, I had previously…

There's a famous psychological experiment where people are split into pairs and given a pot of cash to share. One person decides how it should be apportioned, and the other decides whether to accept that share. If they reject it, neither person receives any money. The logical decision is to always accept the money, because a small amount is still better than nothing. However people don't do that. At a certain point, the desire to punish unfairness outweighs the desire for the money, and people will reject money in order to prevent the unfair person getting anything either.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#284

Post by tjr225 »

crocsarecool wrote: post #182
tjr225 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m back at a more traditional company after being at a startup for two years and the unlimited PTO was amazing. It wasn’t passive aggressive at all and now I sit here one my hands waiting to accumulate enough pto to take an extended break.

I’m back to a traditional place after unlimited. It’s annoying waiting to accumulate time, but I prefer the lines being clearer. The way my old company did unlimited felt like a cheat to not have to pay a vacation accumulation out if you didn’t use it, but you also felt like you were put on the naughty list for taking too much vacation. If you took beyond a certain amount of leave, someone from higher and higher up t…

I wasn’t on a naughty list at my place place. I was encouraged to take time off and would regularly do so, even on short notice.

Maybe somewhat of a hate the player situation. It can be done right and I’ve seen it- and I miss it.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#285

Post by tjr225 »

ryandrake wrote: post #203
dilyevsky wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When employer says “unlimited” they actually mean “take as many as you like as long as your manager is happy with your work” so I doubt you can formalize that in the offer. It’s good deal tho for people who can deliver the goods

If you do really good can you take a year off? If not, then it’s still not unlimited. I’d like my salary and benefits be quantified in my contract rather than “manager discretion” which can go south in a hurry if you have a terrible manager.

In reality I saw employee #1 switch to a different project and take 3 months off. Seems reasonable.

I was happy taking a Friday off here and there when I needed and taking weeks off when I moved. This was in addition to my regular vacations prior to the pandemic.

Everyone anti-unlimited PTO seems to be completely missing the forest for the trees. It’s nice to be respected and trusted to do your work. It’s also nice to fuck off whenever you want.

The argument here is that of course you can’t take a year off and reasonably do your job. Well; we all knew that already.

Genuine Unlimited time off creates an environment of respect between the employee and the employer. If I do my job; I can take some time off. You can’t really do your job if you’re never there, so I don’t get your point.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#286

Post by Thorrez »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #6

I actually think bonuses and equity grants are terrible for comapany morale. I've seen it many times, and heard many more stories. On top of the issue in this story, there are others too. For example, if someone wants to leave, but the bonus or vesting is coming up, they will stay, and you don't want people on a project who don't want to be there. As another example I know people who work at companies that are going…

>For example, if someone wants to leave, but the bonus or vesting is coming up, they will stay, and you don't want people on a project who don't want to be there.

People shouldn't stay at a company based on money? Isn't money one of the main factors causing people to stay at a company?

Or are you more saying they're staying only for a few months then quitting? Yeah, I see that. But maybe the answer isn't to get rid of bonuses and equity, but rather to spread them out over a long time. Don't have yearly stock vests, instead have monthly ones spread out over a year or more.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#287

Post by barry-cotter »

dmarlow wrote: post #259
barry-cotter wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, overwork doesn't lead to more productivity for knowledge workers. You get to pay that piper one way or another in the end. I have never seen any research showing net negative productivity for any job for under 60 hours a week of work. Overwork sucks but if you have evidence that it’s bad for productivity please cite it.

> Overwork sucks but if you have evidence that it’s bad for productivity please cite it. Seriously? Of all things, something so obvious like this needs needs citation?

Feel free to name any category of professional where working over 40 hours a week isn’t quite normal. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, professors. It sure looks like people who work more than 40 hours a week on average do better than those who don’t. This is not a claim about what I wish was true, but about what actually seems to be true.

The actual research on this is scarce to the point of non-existence. It may actually be non-existent for knowledge workers, at least published work.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#288

Post by liamwire »

Thorrez wrote: post #275
ryandrake wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what universe are managers averaging less base salary than individual contributors? Aside from a few outlier engineers you see from time to time...

Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Larry Ellison, Mark Zuckerberg each have a $1 salary. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/032315/why-did-larr...

This is just arguing in bad faith.

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#289

Post by aniforprez »

Sebb767 wrote: post #272
LambdaComplex wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even if it can't pay a huge amount for some positions, there's always a lot of recognition that everyone is needed to make it work, and everyone is appreciated I can't pay my rent in recognition or appreciation though.

But using your money to buy happiness after your ten hour work Saturday is not going to be a big success, either. Yes, it does not replace money, but for some people it is worth more to feel happy at work than to receive a bit more money.

I mean "some people" is clearly not the person you're replying to and I agree with them. I'd much rather get paid for the work I do. Unless I have a stake in the company, the company is not my family and my work is a means to an end

Re: Thanks for the Bonus, I Quit

#290

Post by [deleted] »

zepto wrote: post #193
donw wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Startup employees going home at 5 and fighting unreasonable schedules? Absolutely. First, overwork doesn't lead to more productivity for knowledge workers. You get to pay that piper one way or another in the end. Second, back in the day, if your company was acquired for multiple billions, you had a pretty good shot at a life-changing infusion of cash. Nowadays, stock options given to employees often end up being wo…

> Nowadays, stock options given to employees often end up being worth nothing, even on a successful exit. This seems unlikely. Exits and IPOs have much greater valuations now than they did ‘back in the day’ so far more early employees end up with a significant infusion of cash.

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