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Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

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Re: Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

#61

Post by gshubert17 »

vanderZwan wrote: post #15
sammalloy wrote: post #8

> There is a famous story along these lines told for the first time by the German biologists Ernst Haeckel and Carl Vogt. As the story goes, the fortunes of England would seem to depend on cats. By nourishing themselves on mice, cats increase the chances of survival of bumblebees, which, in turn, pollinate shamrocks, which then nourish the beef cows that provide the meat to nourish British sailors, thus permitting th…

Kinda makes Milton Friedman's Lesson of the Pencil feel even more oversimplified than it already is

And Friedman in 1980 took it from Leonard Read who wrote "I, Pencil" in 1958. See, https://thenewinquiry.com/milton-friedmans-pencil/

Re: Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

#62

Post by NanoCoaster »

nessus42 wrote: post #52
NanoCoaster wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Letting your cat roam free is a tacit acknowledgment that one doesn’t really care that much for the animal, because they will make time to monitor it. I would never be able to walk my cat on a leash. No chance at all. I got her from a shelter and she's around 10-11 years of age (nobody quite knows, actually), I strongly suspect she's been without an owner for at least a few years. Meaning, she's a loner in general,…

> So, I wait for her to return, sometimes until pretty late at night, because I don't want her to have to be outside for the night. I've bell-trained cats that I've owned. I.e., I ring a bell every time before I give them a treat. When I've wanted them to come indoors, I ring the bell, and they've always come running.

That seems like a smart idea!

Probably wouldn't work for my cat, though. For some reason, she isn't interested in treats at all. She eats normally, but only out of her bowl and only when it suits her.

Very hard to train a pet to do even the simplest things when you don't have a simple mechanism for rewards. Luckily, she doesn't really need training.

Re: Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

#63

Post by NanoCoaster »

bredren wrote: post #45
NanoCoaster wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Letting your cat roam free is a tacit acknowledgment that one doesn’t really care that much for the animal, because they will make time to monitor it. I would never be able to walk my cat on a leash. No chance at all. I got her from a shelter and she's around 10-11 years of age (nobody quite knows, actually), I strongly suspect she's been without an owner for at least a few years. Meaning, she's a loner in general,…

First, it’s great you took that animal in and I find no fault with the thing your doing. It is normal in this time. > Also, it's actually work for me to do this. This is the key point. It is work to give a cat outdoor experiences but not allow the cat to roam freely. The same goes for having a dog. But there is a general acceptance that the two animals should be treated completely differently. A wild dog would also n…

> The reason I say that is because it is far more likely an “outdoor” cat will be eaten by a predator or hit by a car. > The cat “owner” accepts letting the cat live it’s best life is more important than protecting it against these dangers that is a choice.

Indeed, I agree with you on that. These risks absolutely have to be kept in mind.

As you said, it really depends on the animal in question. Whatever works for you and your pet, I'm totally fine with other approaches.

As for my cat, I don't really have a choice. She would probably rip a hole through the wall if I forced her to stay inside for more than a week :)

Re: Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

#64

Post by DubiousPusher »

ordu wrote: post #55
MathematicalArt wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recommend “How to Read a Book” by Mortimer Adler. In short, not every sentence, paragraph, chapter, or even book is of equal informative importance. To read all literature as if everything is equally important is really a mistake. Once one recognizes this, it is then ideal to read only at the level of detail and focus as is required for the particular work. What does it mean to have read a book? To read every singl…

> What does it mean to have read a book? To read every single word and symbol? To understand the key ideas and points? To understand what the author thought at the time, what he was trying to say, what he had said really, how he came to his ideas, ... One cannot predict what he'll find in a book before book will be finished. You cannot know what you do not know. The only way is to read it through. Sometimes I read bo…

Agreed. I would not find this kind of life hack approach to reading satisfying. On occasion certainly but I pick up a book explicitly to inhabit it. I don't pick up books I don't wish to become apart of and have become apart of me. The first 200 pages of Moby Dick were phenomenal to me. The book really drops off when the chapters atomize into non-fiction and lose the story. But I was not going to miss one word of what happened to the Pequod or the friendship between Ishmael and Queequeg. It doesn't really pick that story up as I'd like but I wasn't going to risk it. Parts of 'Les Miserables' felt like a slog but it was worth it to truly inhabit the world. I'll probably never read a 1,000+ novel ever again but I wouldn't have read it any other way.

For a reference book sure. They are often best digested out of order.

Re: Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

#65

Post by DubiousPusher »

kiliantics wrote: post #31
DubiousPusher wrote: post #28

> If there is someone who still has this gap in their education, you are urged to fill it without any further delay. Maybe Origin holds up better than I would guess but honestly, I'm never going to read that thing. You've got time to read a few thousand books in your life. And I would bet there are many modern books which cover the same material with a more accessible bent and more up to date and comprehensive inform…

Maybe we don't all need to read the original Darwin, but I do think there is a serious gap in most peoples' knowledge of how the natural world actually functions, how all the components in an ecosystem are interdependent and necessary. There is a framework of understanding that used to be common knowledge which now only experts and enthusiasts possess. I fear that most people in positions to make decisions that impac…

> Maybe we don't all need to read the original Darwin, but I do think there is a serious gap in most peoples' knowledge of how the natural world actually functions, how all the components in an ecosystem are interdependent and necessary.

Yes and there are many great contemporary books that cover just these things, from Gould, to Dawkins, to Wilson, to Dennett, to Sagan. It is rare that the originator of an idea is also its best exponent. Though given the praise of its accessibility and interest here I'm willing to give Origin another thought.

> Our failure to keep people educated on these matters to a base level has probably seriously contributed to the ecological catastrophe we are experiencing

I'm not sure this is true. Environmentalism was basically born in the 60s. Conservation some 40-60 years before that.

People used to believe all kinds of ridiculous things about the health benefits of smoke, heavy metals and oil. Americans nearly extincted the buffalo for its industrial uses. An Australian tycoon almost extinct an island chain of penguins and seals by reducing them down to oil which was sold round the world. I could go on as there are many stories of human exploitation of the natural world that go back to ancient times (read about how Roman silver mines in Spain reshaped the Earth into a hell hole there) and beyond.

We are honestly probably at peak -people caring about the environment-. It obviously has to go a lot further if we are to avert disaster and stop the extinction event humans have been driving for 15,000 years. But we are hardly at a nadir for people's understanding and love of the natural world.

Re: Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

#66

Post by DubiousPusher »

EEMac wrote: post #37
pvaldes wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm never going to read that thing. Is surprisingly accesible and easy to follow in fact. Such way to write science using logic and linking obvious facts instead to trying to wrap all in math glitter couldn't happen today.

You get bonus points for the term "math glitter"!

Heck no! We are in a golden age of accessible science communication. You have to avoid the Gladwells and his ilk but there are people out there like Bill Bryson and Siddhartha Mukherjee that take really complex science, research it well and explain it in clear and practical language.

Re: Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

#67

Post by bredren »

jfk13 wrote: post #57
bredren wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right that my phrasing was incorrect. I have rephrased this with more context in a reply to a sibling comment. I think you should reconsider harness training. It is normal for the cat to “act dead” at first and it takes time to get them used to a leash. Like months. But once they associate the harness with trips outside, the cat can have many of the experiences of “outdoor” cats without the territorial disput…

The "outdoor experiences" my cats enjoy are not experiences they could have on a leash. Yes, they sometimes kill things; most commonly mice and shrews. The local rodent population seems resilient enough to cope. But the joy Catastrophe takes in racing up his favourite tree to look out over the neighbourhood, and chasing his tail around its branches, would rapidly end in a tangled mess if I tried to harness him. He's…

It may sound strange but my cat does climb trees with his leash on. https://imgur.com/a/QMrC6d9

He’ll start running, and I’ll run with him, and he’ll scale it to the smallest branch that will support him.

Sometimes he gets a bit tangled on the way down and I’ll have to unthread a bit. One time I had to toss the handle end over a branch. But most of the time he comes down the exact way he came up.

He’s yet to fall from a tree but the harnesses he’s grown through are either breakaway or loose enough for him to pull out.

In the unusual event of him pulling out of the harness, he will sometimes sprint around but is patient to let me approach and put it back on. It is very strange but a great connection with the animal.

In general, “walking” a cat you do have to be deft with the leash, as they’ll weave more than dogs and don’t go in a straight line at all. I often find myself getting closer than I’d like to people’s parked cars but it’s not a big deal.

They still get to play in bushes and do cat stuff hanging out. Mine is literally chilling in the depths rain garden right now. https://imgur.com/gallery/ETZ1KLt

My cat does have a hunting instinct, and there are specific play activities we do to provide an outlet for that.

It isn’t the life of a free roaming cat, it’s a compromise and it takes more time and energy. But it is really fun and long after the novelty has worn off people never get over seeing a cat walking down the street on a leash.

I can see that it would be not easy to turn a free-folk cat into an “adventure cat,” though I know a person in the neighborhood who had to do this with an older cat because the vet said another fight and he’d be a goner. That brings up the question of protection and in this case he has kept the cat inside. The cat has adjusted.

I’m glad for what you have with that cat.

The point of my post is that I believe there are broad misconceptions of what is possible with cats.

People don’t realize a lot of great life is out there when they are leash trained, (like dogs experience), and that this can limit the life of cats and have other impacts.

Re: Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

#68

Post by bredren »

yw3410 wrote: post #56
twobitshifter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right that it’s much worse for feral cats, but pets are also a problem. Here’s a good study that tracked house cats specifically https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/12/world/pet-cats-disrupt-wildli... > On average, the study found that house cats killed anywhere between 14.2 to 38.9 prey per 100 acres, per year. That averages out to about 3.5 prey each month per cat. The researchers believe this large number is due to…

The RSPB in the UK found no evidence of cats causing the decline and attributes it to a decline in habitat. [1] https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wildlife/advice/gardening-...

The RSPB still recommends keeping cats indoor during times of avian vulnerability, and that study does not estimate dead birds that are not specifically brought home by cats or those that might have been injured.

I have seen more claims of negative impact, or that it impacts ecological systems negatively.

But I still think the bird angle is the wrong one to focus on in discouraging free range household cats.

https://www.birds.cornell.edu/home/seven-simple-actions-to-h...

Re: Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

#69

Post by bredren »

nessus42 wrote: post #41
twobitshifter wrote: post #21

Today no one would chose an introduced species like cats as an example of symbiosis. Outdoor cats are an invasive species which are destroying the native bird populations, and as a result the larger food chain. They are a huge problem for ecosystems.

> Outdoor cats are an invasive species which are destroying the native bird populations This is certainly true for feral cats, but I'm highly skeptical about this claim being true for owned indoor/outdoor cats.

The challenge is that so long as “indoor / outdoor” or “outdoor” cats as pets is a normalized and common concept, it will be difficult to limit the populations of stray and feral cats.

You can see a similar impact in cities / countries that allow unsupervised dogs to run around. There are many strays.

Re: Why bumblebees love cats and other beautiful relationships

#70

Post by [deleted] »

nessus42 wrote: post #59
twobitshifter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right that it’s much worse for feral cats, but pets are also a problem. Here’s a good study that tracked house cats specifically https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/12/world/pet-cats-disrupt-wildli... > On average, the study found that house cats killed anywhere between 14.2 to 38.9 prey per 100 acres, per year. That averages out to about 3.5 prey each month per cat. The researchers believe this large number is due to…

"Prey". Well that's a pretty generic term. Perhaps much of this "prey" are the mice that are a danger to bumblebees.

[deleted]
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