41–50 of 79 posts
Today no one would chose an introduced species like cats as an example of symbiosis. Outdoor cats are an invasive species which are destroying the native bird populations, and as a result the larger food chain. They are a huge problem for ecosystems.
This is certainly true for feral cats, but I'm highly skeptical about this claim being true for owned indoor/outdoor cats.
The prosaic reality is that bumblebees don't have any particular feelings about cats. Not more that they would feel about other carnivores. Using the same argument we could easily link being rich in England with the presence of rats in their house (that also eat lots of mice); or other similar nonsense. (But, yep. I agree that this old histories full of literary licenses feel warm inside and are entertaining as long…
The truth is somewhere in the middle, probably closer to us humans than not in their emotional complexity, for many, many more animals than we give credit.
Today no one would chose an introduced species like cats as an example of symbiosis. Outdoor cats are an invasive species which are destroying the native bird populations, and as a result the larger food chain. They are a huge problem for ecosystems.
I’ve heard this many times but do not know enough to say how big of a problem it is ecologically. I walk my cat on a leash (am on a walk now) and he is the first cat I’ve not allowed outside on his own. Cat walking and the belief you’ve espoused is extremely decisive, but not for the reason you’ve said. Letting your cat roam free is a tacit acknowledgment that one doesn’t really care that much for the animal, because…
This is untrue. I've owned both indoor cats and indoor/outdoor cats. Anyone who has seen the joy that a cat experiences while outdoors would never claim that a cat owner who wants their cat to experience this joy, "doesn't really care that much for the animal".
Maybe an outdoor cat will live a shorter life than an indoor cat, but that hasn't been my personal experience. In fact, I had an outdoor cat that lived for 22 years. In any case, a shorter but happier life is not without its merits.
The cat I currently have is an indoor-only cat, but she only rarely displays the kind of joy that my outdoor cats would routinely. As for walking her on a leash, I have tried, but she will not tolerate the harness, and will manage to escape from it if I persist.
Today no one would chose an introduced species like cats as an example of symbiosis. Outdoor cats are an invasive species which are destroying the native bird populations, and as a result the larger food chain. They are a huge problem for ecosystems.
I’ve heard this many times but do not know enough to say how big of a problem it is ecologically. I walk my cat on a leash (am on a walk now) and he is the first cat I’ve not allowed outside on his own. Cat walking and the belief you’ve espoused is extremely decisive, but not for the reason you’ve said. Letting your cat roam free is a tacit acknowledgment that one doesn’t really care that much for the animal, because…
I would never be able to walk my cat on a leash. No chance at all. I got her from a shelter and she's around 10-11 years of age (nobody quite knows, actually), I strongly suspect she's been without an owner for at least a few years. Meaning, she's a loner in general, incredibly stubborn, a little bit shy and very cautious when it comes to just me touching her outside of petting (and even that took months of getting used to me).
Furthermore, there's no way I could keep her in my apartment for much longer than a few days.
So I let her out on her own. Keeping her inside would make her unhappy pretty quickly - pets can and do get depressed in such cases - and probably also lead to her tearing through my furniture after a while :)
Also, it's actually work for me to do this. Because of the way my apartment is set up, I can't have a cat door installed. So, I wait for her to return, sometimes until pretty late at night, because I don't want her to have to be outside for the night. Well, at least not when it's cold or raining out, she can deal pretty well with warm summer nights, as long as I put some food out.
So, I think the assertion that owners who let their cats roam free therefore don't care about them as much...that just doesn't follow at all, imho.
Now, about the potential ecological impact on the other hand, I'm not going to argue (even though I live in Germany and as far as I know, the situation is different here than in the US - but I'm not sure about that.).
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’ve heard this many times but do not know enough to say how big of a problem it is ecologically. I walk my cat on a leash (am on a walk now) and he is the first cat I’ve not allowed outside on his own. Cat walking and the belief you’ve espoused is extremely decisive, but not for the reason you’ve said. Letting your cat roam free is a tacit acknowledgment that one doesn’t really care that much for the animal, because…
> Letting your cat roam free is a tacit acknowledgment that one doesn’t really care that much for the animal, because they will make time to monitor it. I would never be able to walk my cat on a leash. No chance at all. I got her from a shelter and she's around 10-11 years of age (nobody quite knows, actually), I strongly suspect she's been without an owner for at least a few years. Meaning, she's a loner in general,…
> Also, it's actually work for me to do this.
This is the key point. It is work to give a cat outdoor experiences but not allow the cat to roam freely.
The same goes for having a dog.
But there is a general acceptance that the two animals should be treated completely differently.
A wild dog would also not take well to indoor only life. However, the concept of adopting a feral dog is far less familiar because dogs are generally not allowed to roam cities unattended. (In the US at least)
As for not caring about the animal, I need to clarify:
They must care differently about that animal. It is more like the relationship between a farmer and farm animals than a companion relationship you might see dramatized in a cat food commercial.
The reason I say that is because it is far more likely an “outdoor” cat will be eaten by a predator or hit by a car.
The cat “owner” accepts letting the cat live it’s best life is more important than protecting it against these dangers that is a choice.
So I suppose these folks care differently than other people, because the relationship is different.
> If there is someone who still has this gap in their education, you are urged to fill it without any further delay. Maybe Origin holds up better than I would guess but honestly, I'm never going to read that thing. You've got time to read a few thousand books in your life. And I would bet there are many modern books which cover the same material with a more accessible bent and more up to date and comprehensive inform…
> I'm never going to read that thing. Is surprisingly accesible and easy to follow in fact. Such way to write science using logic and linking obvious facts instead to trying to wrap all in math glitter couldn't happen today.
The bar of accessible is much much lower than the Origin of Species.
> If there is someone who still has this gap in their education, you are urged to fill it without any further delay. Maybe Origin holds up better than I would guess but honestly, I'm never going to read that thing. You've got time to read a few thousand books in your life. And I would bet there are many modern books which cover the same material with a more accessible bent and more up to date and comprehensive inform…
It does not address one question: are these inter-dependencies required, strict and essential to the survival of the affected species.
IOW, are not the species flexible enough and adaptable enough that any change would be fixed by a substitute or a change in behaviour?
There are many claims, both around ecology and climate changes, that hinge on the idea that the current state of the world as a whole is desirable, good and fragile.
That is the main thing that always irks me. Life survived the extinction of the dinosaurs, multiple glaciations, etc. But it is always portrayed as a fragile system. That always seemed to me a bit hypocritical.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’ve heard this many times but do not know enough to say how big of a problem it is ecologically. I walk my cat on a leash (am on a walk now) and he is the first cat I’ve not allowed outside on his own. Cat walking and the belief you’ve espoused is extremely decisive, but not for the reason you’ve said. Letting your cat roam free is a tacit acknowledgment that one doesn’t really care that much for the animal, because…
> Letting your cat roam free is a tacit acknowledgment that one doesn’t really care that much for the animal This is untrue. I've owned both indoor cats and indoor/outdoor cats. Anyone who has seen the joy that a cat experiences while outdoors would never claim that a cat owner who wants their cat to experience this joy, "doesn't really care that much for the animal". Maybe an outdoor cat will live a shorter life tha…
I think you should reconsider harness training. It is normal for the cat to “act dead” at first and it takes time to get them used to a leash. Like months.
But once they associate the harness with trips outside, the cat can have many of the experiences of “outdoor” cats without the territorial disputes, wildlife impact, pooping in your vegetable garden and not getting hit by a car. (Which is traumatic for the driver and passengers as well)
I moderate /r/adventurecats on Reddit, I encourage you to look into training regimens people have there and see the joy people and their cat companions experience with outdoor experiences.