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Java Is Underhyped

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Re: Java Is Underhyped

#621

Post by mnd999 »

huonib wrote: post #598
mnd999 wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The virtual machine is (was?) the whole point. You can run the same binaries on your dev box or your server, whatever flavour of server that happens to be. Startup times are not an issue on servers as processes are typically long-lived anyway. It is a bit of an issue on serverless (lambda etc.) but that’s a relatively new thing. High memory usage is generally poor tuning - if you give the JVM 1gb it will use it and a…

I'm sorry, did you claim poor tuning? look at this graph: https://alvinalexander.com/sites/default/files/inline-images... from: https://alvinalexander.com/scala/graalvm-native-executables-...

Graal is very clever, but that memory example is nonsense. I just tried the Find example they give and whether the graal version beats the java version is completely dependent on Xmx.

Obviously I don't have their dataset, so it's not exactly the same test.

edit: In fact the numbers in the blog are so far off mine they may accidently have been testing /usr/bin/find.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#622

Post by panzerboy »

dmingod666 wrote: post #348
detaro wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't let them use the appropriate/preferred tool for the job and see how much fun it is" is a fairly nonsensical proposal for pretty much every profession.

I can't think of one other major programming language that relies so heavily on the IDE to do the development work, can you?

C#

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#623

Post by kaba0 »

huonib wrote: post #402
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

I think the problem is because of the virtual machine, instead of being compiled to an executable. I mean GraalVM is great - but why did it take so long to develop? I mean Sun could still be alive if developers and users had instant startup times, could have easily deployed Java to servers and clients, and that it was not only faster but used way less memory.

It didn’t take too long, there was AOT compilers available two decades ago as well.

There was just not much interest in it, because performance gets worth, and startup time is seldom interesting. (Pretty much only command line tools would require faster startup, and recent serverless)

And memory usage is a tradeoff. Though most of the time java could run with almost half of the currently used memory, it is unnecessary work to GC if memory is available.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#624

Post by kaba0 »

michaelt wrote: post #290
pjmlp wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is Rust AWT? Not to mention Swing, JavaFX, or even an whole mobile ecosystem.

To be fair, even people deep in the Java ecosystem don't like its desktop application/GUI support. Its only saving grace is that all other cross-platform GUI systems also suck, and if you're doing everything else in Java it might be the path of least resistance.

For ordinary desktop apps, javafx is quite good. It’s a hidden gem in the ecosystem.

(Though I haven’t tried its mobile “backend”)

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#625

Post by eyelidlessness »

I think the discussion about TypeScript, and particularly type guards, really misses the point. Structural typing and manual type narrowing is basically what you’d do anywhere you don’t know some data’s type in the first place—for instance when you get some JSON from an external service. It just happens that that’s fairly common in JS/TS.

It’s also a natural consequence of TS explicitly choosing not to expose its type system to the runtime; a choice which confuses many, but makes sense given the potentially unpredictable performance impact that could have. But there are plenty of good tools for declaring validation and getting types “for free”, allowing you to choose explicitly where you want to incur that runtime cost—typically at API/network boundaries.

This is not much different from interface/protocol/contract based typing, which often appears in a goofy way in Java: class Foo implements IFoo. But when you work in an environment where interface typing is commonplace and done well, it really helps guide good modular design.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#627

Post by kaba0 »

vardump wrote: post #613
kaba0 wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the JVM uses comparably less power than other high level languages. And frankly, you simply can’t write all the software in use in low level languages. Yeah, it is theoretically possible but not feasible

I agree on both counts, but my point still stands that having a high level language with low power consumption would be great. Don't ask me how to create one. But perhaps someone who sees this has some ideas that gets us started on this path. You never know. Power consumption doesn't get enough attention from software developers.

Yeah I completely agree. But perhaps we should not start from scratch again, maybe another JVM implementation with a focus on power consumption? Perhaps even a fork of OpenJDK is enough.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#628

Post by pulse7 »

spentu wrote: post #597
pulse7 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just install any JDK in any directory - nothing to configure there - and then point IntelliJ to this directory... If this is hard, then... hmmm....

People tend to forget that everything seems easy when you know things. I have been in situations where I had to compile some projects from other people and it has been painful every time. Especially as I might be in an environment where there are no IDEs that wrap things up for you. Everyone has different experiences and requirements for their projects and not everything is same as it is for you. Don't take it person…

The parent said "Not to mention the pain point that it still is to install and configure a JDK, and make it work properly with Intellij, why is it still so complicated?" It is NOT complicated. Everybody can try this out. But if the parent had these problems on some specific project where thigs were messed up, he should not generalize these problems from a specific project to every Java project... Everybody can install a fresh IntelliJ IDEA and fresh JDK - and see that this is easy and not complicated at all.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#629

Post by suyash »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

Ever heard a technology called GraalVM ?

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#630

Post by pulse7 »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #502
pulse7 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just written an argument which can be verified. If you call me a "fanatic" because of writing a provable argument I can at least say I have a freedom of speech...

I did not mean to make a judgment on substance, rather I made an observation about tone that seems to reflect a disagreeable personality. Would you agree?

I submitted a >>single<< disagreement, so please don't generalize this into a "disagreeable personality". Please provide opposite arguments - for example some facts that show how complicated it is to setup new JDK in IntelliJ... such arguments will improve quality of discussion here...
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