First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant • Hacker News Board

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#31

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

api wrote: post #19

rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

It would be really interesting to study the dose response curve in regard to a single thing like depression. Do microdoses or mild doses help more or less than a Zoom call with God dose? For a medical use I'd be concerned about the unpredictability of the experience with high doses. A traumatic or chaotic trip could make depression worse or possibly trigger other latent psychological issues.

I imagine it would get really expensive real fast to test the whole range of, what, at least a few dozen substances? Are there any efforts to make running experiments cheaper and faster?

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#32

Post by bootwoot » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

There's some research suggesting that the highest dose you can hit without inducing undue anxiety will be the most effective. As one might expect, this is similar to a tolerable recreational dose that most people would give themselves.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-011-2358-5

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#33

Post by jMyles » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

humantorso wrote: post #20

ridaj wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? The war on drugs didn't prevent a massive rise in opioid medication

Are opioids psychoactive?

> Are opioids psychoactive?

Yes, obviously.

But the idea that psychoactivity is a (or the?) determining characteristic of a compound in determining whether it is prohibited is silly on its face.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#34

Post by lipman » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

You might expect 35mg psilocybin from 1/8 oz of mushrooms, which is a pretty mid to high, all day trip dose. So 25mg is strong but definitely not "ego death" strong.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#35

Post by WORMS_EAT_WORMS » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

> Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space?

A bit ignorant here. Isn’t this 25mg?

Or, is this a more concentrated dose than say normal shrooms where anywhere from 0.5-1-2g to even 5g would take you to the moon?

Seems reasonable to be honest.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#36

Post by AstralStorm » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #25

yosito wrote: post #5

> While members of the psychedelic cohort received 25 milligrams of psilocybin during the sessions, considered a medium-to-heavy dose of the drug, those in the antidepressant group received 1 milligram. Such a low dose is typically provided in psychedelic studies in lieu of a placebo Doesn't seem like well-designed study.

Well, true, but it seems hard to design such a study comparing psychedelics and common antidepressants. Because a antidepressant works pretty much on its own. But when you treat with psychedelics, you have to have a very professional therapist guiding the patient, otherwise you will get all kinds of effects. (So I argue success depends very much on the therapist) And a patient will notice, whether they just get a mus…

It's a valid comparison design. An alternative is to use a high dose of a known non-antidepressant psychedelic, if one exists, as control. That would have to be something outside ergoloid, tryptamine and psylocybin families, which are likely to have those effects.

Tough problem.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#37

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

[deleted]

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#38

Post by curiousllama » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

I totally agree with you, but on the other hand, am also interested in the related study question of: "What happens if we just melt some randos fucking faces off with shrooms?"

Will be interesting to read the paper

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#39

Post by mtalantikite » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

Tenoke wrote: post #30

rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

25 is as they say 'medium-to-heavy dose'. It's not as excessively high as you make it sound and it isn't quite 'an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space' It's definitely a 'proper trip' but you are making it seem like a DMT breakthrough amount.

Yeah, agreed. I know mushrooms are highly variable in their psilocybin and psilocin content, but it’s generally around 1% of dried mass for cubensis from what I’ve read. So in this case that’s what, 2.5 grams of mushrooms about? That’s not nothing, but it certainly isn’t an ego death sort of dose. I know a lot of people that will take 3.5 grams for a typical “journey” when they’re seeking to get in there and do some internal work.

It seems like a perfectly fine dose for a study like this: not too overwhelming and not too small.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#40

Post by hutzlibu » Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

AstralStorm wrote: post #36

hutzlibu wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, true, but it seems hard to design such a study comparing psychedelics and common antidepressants. Because a antidepressant works pretty much on its own. But when you treat with psychedelics, you have to have a very professional therapist guiding the patient, otherwise you will get all kinds of effects. (So I argue success depends very much on the therapist) And a patient will notice, whether they just get a mus…

It's a valid comparison design. An alternative is to use a high dose of a known non-antidepressant psychedelic, if one exists, as control. That would have to be something outside ergoloid, tryptamine and psylocybin families, which are likely to have those effects. Tough problem.

Aren't psychedelics by definition mind altering? Sounds hard to find a psychedelic that isn't influencing the mind.

Some mild hallucinogenics might work, but then the participants may not have mushrooms experience before, otherwise they know when to be fooled.