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First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

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Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#11

Post by nicklecompte »

yosito wrote: post #5

> While members of the psychedelic cohort received 25 milligrams of psilocybin during the sessions, considered a medium-to-heavy dose of the drug, those in the antidepressant group received 1 milligram. Such a low dose is typically provided in psychedelic studies in lieu of a placebo Doesn't seem like well-designed study.

I agree that this is a bad flaw but the reasoning about the “nocebo” effect does make sense: administering a placebo actually confounds the results if the participants know it’s a placebo, and it will be pretty obvious it the pill you took doesn’t have any psychedelics.

Studies like these are inherently difficult, this isn’t an issue of poor design.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#12

Post by the-dude »

yosito wrote: post #5

> While members of the psychedelic cohort received 25 milligrams of psilocybin during the sessions, considered a medium-to-heavy dose of the drug, those in the antidepressant group received 1 milligram. Such a low dose is typically provided in psychedelic studies in lieu of a placebo Doesn't seem like well-designed study.

The article specifically says this is to prevent nocebo effects.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#13

Post by TaupeRanger »

yosito wrote: post #5

> While members of the psychedelic cohort received 25 milligrams of psilocybin during the sessions, considered a medium-to-heavy dose of the drug, those in the antidepressant group received 1 milligram. Such a low dose is typically provided in psychedelic studies in lieu of a placebo Doesn't seem like well-designed study.

You criticize the study but don't provide any arguments against the methodology. Tell us what you know about WHY they give people low doses in the control group, then explain why you think a different method would be better. These aren't idiots designing studies.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#14

Post by ridaj »

yosito wrote: post #5

> While members of the psychedelic cohort received 25 milligrams of psilocybin during the sessions, considered a medium-to-heavy dose of the drug, those in the antidepressant group received 1 milligram. Such a low dose is typically provided in psychedelic studies in lieu of a placebo Doesn't seem like well-designed study.

TFA features a very reasonable explanation in the next few sentences. If participants are going to a session where they'll be essentially locked in with a psychiatrist for a few hours and take only a placebo, they'll know it, and they'll get more depressed from knowing that they're in the placebo arm. So instead a small dose is provided which has some lesser effects, avoiding to break the participants' "blindness" to the protocol.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#15

Post by ridaj »

arpa wrote: post #3
spiritplumber wrote: post #2

Wasn't this tested 50 years ago and then sort of left dormant?

Psychedelic psychotherapy was left as a casualty to the war on drugs.

? The war on drugs didn't prevent a massive rise in opioid medication

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#16

Post by [deleted] »

yosito wrote: post #5

> While members of the psychedelic cohort received 25 milligrams of psilocybin during the sessions, considered a medium-to-heavy dose of the drug, those in the antidepressant group received 1 milligram. Such a low dose is typically provided in psychedelic studies in lieu of a placebo Doesn't seem like well-designed study.

[deleted]

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#17

Post by rank0 »

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study...

I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space?

This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-holed.

Maybe the science says otherwise, but personal experience tells me you don't need to melt your fucking face to experience the anti-depressant effects of psychedelics. It can be destabilizing to some.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#18

Post by ipaddr »

TaupeRanger wrote: post #13
yosito wrote: post #5

> While members of the psychedelic cohort received 25 milligrams of psilocybin during the sessions, considered a medium-to-heavy dose of the drug, those in the antidepressant group received 1 milligram. Such a low dose is typically provided in psychedelic studies in lieu of a placebo Doesn't seem like well-designed study.

You criticize the study but don't provide any arguments against the methodology. Tell us what you know about WHY they give people low doses in the control group, then explain why you think a different method would be better. These aren't idiots designing studies.

Not the parent but perhaps allowing for a third group with no antidepression medication.

Re: First of its kind study pits psilocybin against a common antidepressant

#19

Post by api »

rank0 wrote: post #17

25 is a pretty fat dose. Seems excessive for a scientific study... I always wonder how these people running the studies choose their doses. Do we want the participants to have a smooth/pleasant trip? Or have an white knuckle, ego-obliterating flight through space? This reminds me of another study I read where participants were given 100+mg doses of liquid ketamine straight to the dome. The participants frequently k-h…

It would be really interesting to study the dose response curve in regard to a single thing like depression. Do microdoses or mild doses help more or less than a Zoom call with God dose?

For a medical use I'd be concerned about the unpredictability of the experience with high doses. A traumatic or chaotic trip could make depression worse or possibly trigger other latent psychological issues.

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