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Java Is Underhyped

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Re: Java Is Underhyped

#471

Post by thu2111 »

madia_leva wrote: post #296
thu2111 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, any sufficiently large or complex codebases will get ridiculously long names at some point. Here are some from a famous C API (Windows): CoMarshalInterThreadInterfaceInStream D3D12_GPU_BASED_VALIDATION_SHADER_PATCH_MODE_UNGUARDED_VALIDATION RtlWriteDecodedUcsDataIntoSmartLBlobUcsWritingContext Or how about: GtkColorSelectionChangePaletteWithScreenFunc The alternative is things having names that aren't actually de…

Or have a good package system... If you use a language with import with aliases, you don't need all that noise.

Java has such a system but people write long class names anyway, because people don't like to have too many types with identical names distinguished only by namespace. You can do it but it's a bit questionable to what extent you should.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#472

Post by acomjean »

acdha wrote: post #350
adrianN wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is orders of magnitude faster than Python for code that doesn't spend all of its time waiting for IO. Java perf and Go perf are about the same.

> Java is orders of magnitude faster than Python for code that doesn't spend all of its time waiting for IO. It's hard to separate the absolute performance of Java the language from Java the culture where inefficient patterns or attempts to implement dynamic behaviors in some framework code defeat the JIT (not to mention the benefits of type-checking). If you have a team which cares, it should be faster but the avera…

Having got back into Java a bit recently I was surprised how fast it was (coming from python/Perl and php).

Speed doesn’t matter always, but when it does it Java feels snappy. Our programs our command line based so our framework use is limited. Also the built in data structures are nice. I still find getting Java’s set up painful, which is a huge impediment for us using it more.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#473

Post by dboreham »

the_gipsy wrote: post #449
sixbrx wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDE's can be fiddly, and anyway I don't think it's good to depend on an IDE for building. The project could have been set up instead with the "Maven wrapper"(1) which provides "mvn.cmd/sh" scripts at the top level of the project to fetch and run the proper Maven. So after cloning the project, all you have to do is set a proper JAVA_HOME if it's not already set, and then do "./mvn clean package" at the top of the proj…

I can (and often do) build from CLI, that is much smoother. I tried using vim on java, but honestly you need an IDE for all the constant code generation and incessant fixups by mouseclicks that are needed. Vim+coc is more than enough in the other languages that I use.

You're living in a parallel universe from the rest of us. IDE isn't necessary (and positively odd) for building Java.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#474

Post by dunefox »

blandflakes wrote: post #460
dunefox wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acting like Java tooling isn't more difficult than other languages is dishonest. Starting with a Java project is considerably more complex than with most other languages. "Missing manifest" or issues with classpaths are not intuitive.

Ok I'm super sympathetic to how annoying it is to manage JDKs, but holy hell it's not like Python tooling (for example) is a walk in the park. Are you using system python? Is it pip, with it's constantly breaking upgrades, or poetry, which isn't necessarily production ready? Do you have a virtualenv? Pipenv? How do you package it? Java tooling can be painful but to me it's VERY squarely middle of the road.

I agree, Python is horrible. And I don't even like the language itself much. I like Julia, for example - although packaging there isn't great either.

My problem is that Java is one of the (probably) 3 biggest languages in use, both investment and dev time wise, and it's overall just not that great.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#475

Post by liveoneggs »

the_gipsy wrote: post #337
jsiepkes wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody has started a project with Ant in the last decade. Of all the Java projects on Github Ant is probably not even 1%. > Oh and now I have to make it work in the IDE too, click through a billion menus and dialogs, You click "Project from existing sources" in IntellIJ and it will recognize both Maven and Gradle projects and just work? Sync the dependencies? configure runtimes and classpaths? What? With Maven and Gr…

I'm talking about a maven project I have to use sometimes at work. Let me walk you through all the shit I had to do: - Install and set the right java version system-wide - Copy some config files for the project system-wide (granted, this is not java specific, but still) - Click in some IDE menu to enable some build settings - Click in some IDE menu to install some "Lombok" plugin - Click in some IDE menu to select th…

You say this as if python could do any better

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#476

Post by travisgriggs »

cies wrote: post #224
theamk wrote: post #7

There are a few reasons to avoid Java today. - The programs are very verbose for the functionality they provide. There are countless lines of getters, setters, and trivial constructors. While IDE helps to write them, it makes reading existing programs slow and frustrating. Lombok helps, but very few programs use it. - If you do want to use Java ecosystem, there is Scala. It also has strong type system, nice IDE suppo…

> If you do want to use Java ecosystem, there is Scala. Scala has a whole slew of problems of it's own. IMHO, Kotlin is where all the Java refugees on the JVM continent are at.

I use Kotlin so that I don't have to use Java. But it's still far from the "This is the Language I want to commit the rest of my career to."

Language development looks a lot like the startup path anymore. Claim you fill a need. Focus on growth growth growth by adopting features from as many communities as possible as fast as possible. If it's trendy, add it! Have a flashy web page. Find some venture capital by getting a big org to underwrite/champion you. Figure out how to really solve problems and fix everything once you've got critical community.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#477

Post by thiht »

offtop5 wrote: post #321
thiht wrote: post #112

> Java is fun to write, productive What the hell? I don't think we have the same definition for any of these words. I know Java has changed quite a bit since Java 8 (Java 9 being the last version I used professionally before switching completely to Go), but I just can't write Java again, it's physical. When I want to try a new Java feature and think about writing the scaffolding code, my stomach actually hurts. Not t…

>When I want to try a new Java feature and think about writing the scaffolding code, my stomach actually hurts. Like, if you're out of work for a couple of months and the only way to feed your kids is to take a Java job, I don't think you'd pass it up. I wouldn't pass it up either even though I don't like Java. The whole language feels like it's designed to meet some minimum lines of code requirement. If you're worki…

> Like, if you're out of work for a couple of months and the only way to feed your kids is to take a Java job, I don't think you'd pass it up.

I would honestly consider the alternatives. I'd probably take it in the end because money is good, but I'd try to flirt with manual work instead, if Java was my only option.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#478

Post by oftenwrong »

thiht wrote: post #112

> Java is fun to write, productive What the hell? I don't think we have the same definition for any of these words. I know Java has changed quite a bit since Java 8 (Java 9 being the last version I used professionally before switching completely to Go), but I just can't write Java again, it's physical. When I want to try a new Java feature and think about writing the scaffolding code, my stomach actually hurts. Not t…

>Not to mention the pain point that it still is to install and configure a JDK, and make it work properly with Intellij, why is it still so complicated?

You just download the JDK, and set JAVA_HOME to point to it when you want to use it.

For IntelliJ, you set the JDK in the project settings. It has a menu where you can point it to a JDK it knows about already, a JDK on your FS, or you can select a JDK for it to download for you. Couldn't be easier.

Java build systems are mostly terrible - you're right about that. Maven has the best tooling support, and is actually very straightforward, but a bit limited. I have had a number of bad experiences with Gradle. The Blaze-family build systems (Bazel, Buck, Pants, Please, etc) are far more sane, but have low adoption.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#480

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn »

fian wrote: post #345
jsiepkes wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody has started a project with Ant in the last decade. Of all the Java projects on Github Ant is probably not even 1%. > Oh and now I have to make it work in the IDE too, click through a billion menus and dialogs, You click "Project from existing sources" in IntellIJ and it will recognize both Maven and Gradle projects and just work? Sync the dependencies? configure runtimes and classpaths? What? With Maven and Gr…

Guess I'm nobody. I created a simple Swing (desktop) app in Java a couple of weeks ago. The process was something like: Create new Java project in IDE Add no dependencies Use the built in IDE tooling to create a runnable JAR and tick the box to export the Ant build to a build.xml file. Why would I want to complicate things by adding Maven/Gradle to the mix?

This method is useless for most projects, so yes, you are nobody.
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