341–350 of 808 posts
The sheer verbosity of Java is just unbearable when you're used to Python/Go/Swift/etc. No, Java is just about as hyped as it needs to be. Which is to say, it's more or less fine. Not great, not terrible. Middle of the road at best.
I am sorry, Go? That can’t be right. I even doubt it’s any more verbose than python or swift. You CAN make it verbose that’s for sure.
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I came to say say that's not a language problem, that's a packaging problem. But that would be misleading. The reason packaging is still a problem in Python are linked to the language: - to get perfs, you need compiled extensions, which java doesn't need. So a Jar can be fast and portable, while in Python it's an "or" proposition. Wheels help, but they still are OS dependent, so you need a build per OS. - PYZ arrived…
Is shiv better than pyinstaller? When turned my script into a binary with this, it took 10 seconds extra on every execution just to start running the script (Eg to just print the help message). I found that to be unbearable since this was a command line script that was invoked anew for every execution
Pyinstaller builds bundle the python binary with the project. It works without a Python installed on the system, is not portable and the resulting binary is fat. It also can fail in numerous way and be slow, but end users will find it the easier to use when they work.
Pyz files just contains python code. Shiv produce them by bundling your code and the dependencies, but you still need a Python installed on the system to run that. You pay the cost of zipping only on the first run though, after that, it's unzipped. And their are portable if you use no binary wheel. It's light and easy to get right.
In that sense, they look more like War files in Java.
Pyinstaller, like cx_freeze and nuikta are for end users.
Pyz are for devs.
For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…
It's horses for courses. Some plus points for Java: - you can integrate code from hundreds of developers fairly safely (knowing that no one has changed the default behaviour fo builtins and different dependencies won't clash). - the syntax, although not the most succinct is fairly easily readable and maintainable by other developers.
It's exceedingly rare for this to be untrue of Python — it's technically possible to hack builtins but there's intense community pressure against doing that.
> - the syntax, although not the most succinct is fairly easily readable and maintainable by other developers.
This is sort of true but it misses the aspect which makes Java hard to maintain: the language being less capable means that you end up with more boilerplate syntax which has to be understood when reading it and the patterns that produces tend to be the long-term maintenance issue instead.
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Java created that hype to market itself. OOP all the things probably wouldn't have been a thing without it, for instance. It was very much a marketed language and a language designed to be sold to top heavy corporations. This fueled a lot of the crappy design decisions, the hype and the culture.
> Java created that hype to market itself. OOP all the things probably wouldn't have been a thing without it, for instance “OOP all the things” predated (and led to) Java, it wasn’t a product of Java (C++, Objective-C, Object Pascal and, well, a bunch of other things from the late 1980s and early 1990s were where it got started.) Java was about a decade into it.
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Java is so much worse on this front. > with Java, you just dump the necessary jars into a directory, include them in the classpath, and it works. Ant, maven, or gradle, and then some jars, somewhere? What's the classpath and whats $JAVA_HOME for this project? Oh and now I have to make it work in the IDE too, click through a billion menus and dialogs, sync the build system, sync the dependencies, configure runtimes an…
Nobody has started a project with Ant in the last decade. Of all the Java projects on Github Ant is probably not even 1%. > Oh and now I have to make it work in the IDE too, click through a billion menus and dialogs, You click "Project from existing sources" in IntellIJ and it will recognize both Maven and Gradle projects and just work? Sync the dependencies? configure runtimes and classpaths? What? With Maven and Gr…
Create new Java project in IDE Add no dependencies Use the built in IDE tooling to create a runnable JAR and tick the box to export the Ant build to a build.xml file.
Why would I want to complicate things by adding Maven/Gradle to the mix?
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I'm not good at English but shouldn't that be just "You'll never want X"?, "for" seems redundant to me. Anyway I looked it up, seems it's a legit usage, my bad.
That is not wrong, but "want for" is also a common and old idiom. Akin to "for want of a horse" Another way to think of it is simply another slightly different meaning for the word "want". Just like in "for want of a horse", or "was found wanting", you can replace the word "want" with the word "lack" in all these examples. "You'll never lack for work", "the project stalled for lack of engineers", "the code was found…
> You could also just say "lack work" instead of "lack for work". But that doesn't really make the "for" redundant. Though I can't explain the reason why not.
I think it's just that "want" in its original usage is a noun. "Wanting" in "found wanting" is really a gerund of "have a want," not a gerunding of "want." "Wanting" as a gerunding of the verb "want" doesn't necessarily imply a lack. "Wanting to go to the park on Wednesday" doesn't mean you lack anything.
I do think Java has a bad rep as a "dry, corporate, enterprise" language, but I think there is an ecosystem around Java that is pretty awesome and you can build incredible applications with Java if you want to. Java has a branding problem. Java (and Oracle) missed the wave of the last 15 years when tech became "cool." If you were new to tech/programming and wanted to pick up a language, which of these three would you…
I actually laughed out loud at the Java.com homepage. I was so surprised, I expected a sleek, modern homepage but instead I got a portal to 2010.
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"fun to write" give them IDE-driven-developers a text editor and see how much "fun" it is.
"Don't let them use the appropriate/preferred tool for the job and see how much fun it is" is a fairly nonsensical proposal for pretty much every profession.
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Python projects that start to grow has a tendency to become hard to manage in a way that I have not seen in Java at all. Java is like you say not the greatest at anything but it is also not the worst at anything. Its great for projects where the you don't know what you should optimize for or don't care. If java is to boring maybe kotlin is the way to go. I really like kotlin and in my personal experience the only dow…
I write software in Java. I can't stand python - too wishy-washy. But my main complaint about Python is trying to use someone else's software. Then it degenerates into a maze of twisty little passages of trying to install the correct set of dependencies, not knowing where those files are installed (which makes it difficult on a cluster, as you may need to do the install on every node separately). Then you try using p…
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Yes, but that's my point. If I don't need performance, Python is ok. If I do, I won't go Java, I will choose something that is built for performance. Python is good enough for 99% of my performances need. The last 1%, jumping to java is not a big difference, I'll use rust or go. I won't use go for the ecosystem, but it's unique characteristics: easy concurrency, dead simple binary production. Java can't beat that. IF…
Java is orders of magnitude faster than Python for code that doesn't spend all of its time waiting for IO. Java perf and Go perf are about the same.
It's hard to separate the absolute performance of Java the language from Java the culture where inefficient patterns or attempts to implement dynamic behaviors in some framework code defeat the JIT (not to mention the benefits of type-checking). If you have a team which cares, it should be faster but the average business app I see does not have that team and will, if lucky, perform within the same order of magnitude as Python.