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Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

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Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#61

Post by tinus_hn »

pjmlp wrote: post #23
est31 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what Linus Torvalds said too: ARM won't have a chance in the datacenter until it gets onto desktop computers of developers first. https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=183440&curpost... That moment is now here. Sure, it's only a subset of the market, but Mac devices are a significant percentage of developer computers (28%), way higher than in the general population (17%). https://insights.stackoverflow…

I did not have a 88000, SPARC, PA-RISC, RS/6000 desktop to develop on UNIX. Likewise, with the return of timesharing, anyone can log into their assigned server slot and work just like I was doing 30 years ago.

Does it really matter these days? 99% of development is done in platform agnostic languages where CPU architecture doesn’t matter anyway. Even endianness is mostly hidden away.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#62

Post by tinus_hn »

coldtea wrote: post #54
pjmlp wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lucky you to work for such wealthy organisations. I happen to care for fellow developers, and outside our Fortune 500 customers orgs, I haven't seen anyone being so lucky, and even then, Apple hardware tends to stay at MBA levels, unless they are doing iOS development. I have seen devs teams where iMacs are timeshared across teams.

> Lucky you to work for such wealthy organisations. Are we talking about enterprises here, with say, millions in revenue and a few millions in profit, or small shops that can't afford webservers and maybe use some shared hosting? > I happen to care for fellow developers, and outside our Fortune 500 customers orgs, I haven't seen anyone being so lucky Well, outside of the virtue signalling (and/or implying that I don'…

Of course the typical ‘Enterprise means Microsoft’ companies aren’t going to use these Apple machines that don’t run Windows.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#63

Post by tinus_hn »

vetinari wrote: post #56
kmonsen wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac mini is $700, pretty sure most companies can use this as a dev computer.

Mac mini might be $700/€800, but 1) for an inadequate configuration, you need €1260 for something usable and 2) the cost of integrating the first Mac into Windows-optimized infrastructure is way above that. If you want things like Kerberos SSO (i.e. Active Directory), you need Apple-blessed MDM system to provision it. That one isn't coming in the price of the Mac mini. So most companies, if they have a mac, it is one…

The services to manage Windows Clients aren’t free either.

The costs are in setting up the whole infrastructure for managing and supporting a new class of devices.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#65

Post by rbut »

est31 wrote: post #14
Laremere wrote: post #12

I wonder if the Apple Silicon decision is going to have a large impact on what CPUs are used in the datacenter? I (and I suspect many others) would just default to x86_64, because that's what I develop on and compile to. I suspect many developers on Apple computers will start to look at the differences and choose whatever meets their requirements while minimizing costs. Should this trend continue, this could even hav…

That's what Linus Torvalds said too: ARM won't have a chance in the datacenter until it gets onto desktop computers of developers first. https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=183440&curpost... That moment is now here. Sure, it's only a subset of the market, but Mac devices are a significant percentage of developer computers (28%), way higher than in the general population (17%). https://insights.stackoverflow…

That’s assuming all current Mac developers decide to switch to ARM macs. I (Mac developer of 13 years) have switched away to linux. I’m sure there are others like me.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#66

Post by coldtea »

pjmlp wrote: post #60
coldtea wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lucky you to work for such wealthy organisations. Are we talking about enterprises here, with say, millions in revenue and a few millions in profit, or small shops that can't afford webservers and maybe use some shared hosting? > I happen to care for fellow developers, and outside our Fortune 500 customers orgs, I haven't seen anyone being so lucky Well, outside of the virtue signalling (and/or implying that I don'…

OP was the one asserting how M1 is relevant for the data center. As for the rest I won't bother to reply.

>OP was the one asserting how M1 is relevant for the data center.

And I think his assertion is on point, in the sense that the widespread availability of desktop ARMs on developers hands will help drive ARM adoption to the datacenter (and that's just with the M1/M... line, not to mention further ARM adoption by MS that's also possible).

For what is worth, Linus Torvalds made a similar point regarding the influence of developer architecture options to server architecture choices (and especially regarding ARM).

I think that the objection "but developing world / poorer companies don't use Macs/M1" is valid, but not really relevant, kinda moving the goalposts. It's not those that set industry trends (and surely not in the US).

>As for the rest I won't bother to reply.

Well, I've replied to the arguments, with what I think is the case (and what I've seen).

Not sure if you were bothered that I took offense to the "I happen to care for fellow developers" line. But it sounded like an insult that wasn't called for, and was not relevant to the discussion.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#67

Post by drcongo »

stefandesu wrote: post #50
n42 wrote: post #45

I am disappointed that this still requires Rosetta to install, negating the point of targeting Apple Silicon for my usecase. I recently had to wipe my machine to remove Rosetta (there's no "uninstall"), and saw quite a significant boost in performance across the board.

You mean simply having Rosetta installed on your machine noticeably slows down everything else, even if you're not using an app under Rosetta? This sounds like a bug.

Or confirmation bias.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#68

Post by idnefju »

rbut wrote: post #65
est31 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what Linus Torvalds said too: ARM won't have a chance in the datacenter until it gets onto desktop computers of developers first. https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=183440&curpost... That moment is now here. Sure, it's only a subset of the market, but Mac devices are a significant percentage of developer computers (28%), way higher than in the general population (17%). https://insights.stackoverflow…

That’s assuming all current Mac developers decide to switch to ARM macs. I (Mac developer of 13 years) have switched away to linux. I’m sure there are others like me.

Not for me, the user experience for Linux based PCs hasn’t changed in 10 years. That is it still not as good as as macOS.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#69

Post by vetinari »

tinus_hn wrote: post #63
vetinari wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac mini might be $700/€800, but 1) for an inadequate configuration, you need €1260 for something usable and 2) the cost of integrating the first Mac into Windows-optimized infrastructure is way above that. If you want things like Kerberos SSO (i.e. Active Directory), you need Apple-blessed MDM system to provision it. That one isn't coming in the price of the Mac mini. So most companies, if they have a mac, it is one…

The services to manage Windows Clients aren’t free either. The costs are in setting up the whole infrastructure for managing and supporting a new class of devices.

> The services to manage Windows Clients aren’t free either.

Yes, but unless you are a new or very small company, they were already paid.

> The costs are in setting up the whole infrastructure for managing and supporting a new class of devices.

Exactly.

Re: Docker Desktop for Mac (Apple Silicon)

#70

Post by Toutouxc »

vetinari wrote: post #56
kmonsen wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac mini is $700, pretty sure most companies can use this as a dev computer.

Mac mini might be $700/€800, but 1) for an inadequate configuration, you need €1260 for something usable and 2) the cost of integrating the first Mac into Windows-optimized infrastructure is way above that. If you want things like Kerberos SSO (i.e. Active Directory), you need Apple-blessed MDM system to provision it. That one isn't coming in the price of the Mac mini. So most companies, if they have a mac, it is one…

The M1 Mac Mini with 16 GB RAM is $859 in the US and 1029€ in a generic European country (Germany).

In my opinion that's pretty competitive.

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