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Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

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Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#481

Post by vladTheInhaler »

kroltan wrote: post #225
xpe wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression it is common for technically oriented people to think of salespeople, marketers, and recruiters as manipulative. In your view, what are some ways you think about the difference between persuasion and manipulation? I've been reading about this very topic in the context of media persuasion.

Not who you asked, but for me persuasion is a manner of manipulation, trying to convince anyone of anything using anything but raw and complete information is manipulation. Of course under that assumption, basically every human communication is manipulative, but that doesn't mean it is intrinsically "evil". It's all rather subjective I guess. "Evil", or maybe to be a bit more specific, "sleazy", would be to use such…

Of course everyone has an agenda. I think it crosses over into "manipulation" when you knowingly advance your own agenda at the other person's expense.

For instance, suppose I have a wonderful product people would love to buy, if only they knew about it. I would argue that advertising it wouldn't be "manipulative" as it is commonly understood, even though I am doing it for selfish reasons. But if I knew that the product was dangerous, or fake, or otherwise harmful, then that becomes manipulative behavior.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#482

Post by atoav »

dcolkitt wrote: post #109
honkycat wrote: post #88

Your writing is not strong, i can tell you did not attend college. Written communication is important in tech. Your applying to those companies with 0 experience or college degree is unrealistic. The entry level is extremely competitive and you have nothing to make you interesting to hire. They get thousands of applications for those jobs. You are still young, plenty of time to learn, but I recommend taking a step ba…

> Your writing is not strong, I don't know. I think he has pretty decent writing. Kinda reminds me of William Gibson. It may be stylistically unusual, but it's definitely better than the median SWE. At least in terms of clearly conveying his thoughts.

What is lacking however (and what seems to impact the opinion of many here negatively) is the total lack of self reflectivity.

E.g. the previous jobs at the 3 big companies. Why did OP stop working there? Who ended the contract and why? If OP quit themselves, we lack any reason to understand why and whether this was a good idea in hindsight.

Similar situation with the spoofing thing: this is an incredibly daring thing to do. A very self reflective person might ask themselves question like: "Maybe that was a mistake? How did the other side perceive this?" — especially after a rejection.

With OP I get two vibes:

1. The issues that lead to them not getting the job they deserve are external. For OP it is out of the question that their behaviour/path they took in the world could have to do with how they are judged. From what I read there is no really rational ground for this confidence.

2. Instead of asking how to change the perception the other side has of them, OP seems to be more interested in the question how they can exploit their way into the position they think they deserve, without putting the leg work and trustbuilding into it.

Technically and stylistically the writing is okay, it just seems to be written from the perspective of someone who didn't follow through on reflecting their own position in the job market and their own flaws when it comes to human interaction.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#483

Post by JamesDeepDown »

dotBen wrote: post #83

First off, your HN submission history is really weird, dude. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=snakedoctor ) If you get a job in customer support at Amazon there is literally no way to get a 'promotion' to a dev role. It's different parts of the org, and you're tarnished with being a CS person. Why? Because it's signaling - people who can do eng roles at Amazon don't take CS roles so they don't bother minin…

"I'll give you mock 30 minute interview (I've hired countless engineers, designers, PMs and other roles in the last 20+ years)"

This is an incredibly generous offer and I hope it gets done, because it would BY FAR the most valuable thing that the OP needs.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#484

Post by helpfulanon »

I'm fascinated that you were able to interview and in a few cases get hired by companies with a massively high bar and sophisticated screening. Someone let you in the door because they saw something in you. They wanted to give you a shot, that they DO NOT give to just anyone.

This almost certainly has to be a significant problem with mental health or social skills. You're just not fitting in, so you're getting ejected over and over.

Assuming mental health is something you've accepted may be the problem, my advice is:

1) Go to therapy and invest in it. If you're prescribed meds, take the meds. If they give you goofy homework do the homework. Double down on it. (this helped me)

2) Accept that even though you have talent, these bigger companies just may not be the right fit for you. There are many small tech businesses, including development and security consulting shops and agencies (think 100 people or less) that pay well and are staffed with talented misfits. They tend to be very nurturing places that let you carve out your role and find your place. Smaller businesses have health plans etc too. Be humble and have an open mind.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#485

Post by snicker7 »

gen220 wrote: post #141
snakedoctor wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my former co-workers at IBM went to a bootcamp in SF. She is pretty smart. Though, I feel that bootcamps are kinda scams. Not like colleges though.

I went to college and have many coworkers who went to boot camps, and we’re paid the same! Look on LinkedIn for people who work at the companies you want to work at, and also went to bootcamps, to build a shortlist. There are several boot camps today, in every major urban area, that carry major street cred in the local tech communities.

Counter-anecdote: I work with a couple of devs who went the bootcamp path. Great front-end devs. However, they are paid significantly less for the same work relative to fresh grads in the office. Wages aren't based off of fairness, but on market factors. They are paid less presumably because management knows they have less options.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#486

Post by barry-cotter »

snakedoctor wrote: post #89
kryogen1c wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm seeing a therapist. I had an abusive childhood. Not that it justifies anything. I was also homeschooled since the 6th grade, so I didn't really have any IRL friends etc. I hope that I'm not a sociopath... I might be on the high functioning autisim scale. I've never been tested so I don't know.

Don’t apologize to people who give you abuse. Not on the Internet and not in real life.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#487

Post by qsi »

snakedoctor wrote: post #210
pcthrowaway wrote: post #134

If you're not currently working, I'd recommend a staffing agency, Uber Eats, Taskrabbit, Instacart, etc. There are ways to start making money right now that might keep you from being homeless. And being homeless is going to set you back. Don't put any of the above on your resume. What are you looking for? You haven't really elaborated on what your skills are except for alluding to a possible penchant for security res…

I saw some people in Austin who did gig work like uber etc. I've thought about it. I'm a very anxious driver though. I've though about working in a Amazon warehouse. There's one near me. But they don't get health benefits for 3+ months. Have to do intense manual labor etc. EA QA was the most toxic place I ever worked at. Belittling people, thinking that all testers are incompetent etc. I have back pain, and dental is…

> I've though about working in a Amazon warehouse. There's one near me. But they don't get health benefits for 3+ months. Have to do intense manual labor etc.

I think you need to focus on your priorities here. As I understand you're currently jobless and obviously have no health benefits, and are on the verge of becoming homeless. Doing three months of "intense manual labor" to get a paycheck and health benefits is (in my view at least) far preferable to being homeless and penniless.

My perception of your reply is that you think the Amazon warehouse job is beneath you; does homelessness appeal more? Seriously, at this stage, in the very short run, your number one priority should be to avert homelessness, and do whatever it takes. I know you mentioned back pain, but if the Amazon warehouse isn't your thing, there should be something else you can do to tide you over.

More broadly as lot of commenters have very kindly offered to talk to you and help you in various ways. That is an immense gift! Make use of it, and don't make them regret offering their assistance.

You're in a bad place mentally right now, but you're young, you're not stupid and you can get out of this, but you need to be willing to put in the effort. Asking the question here is a very good first step.

Lastly, you may also want to visit Ask A Manager [1] which has a lot of good advice on cover letters, resumes, interviewing, etc. It's not tech-specific, but most of the advice applies universally.

Good luck!

[1] https://www.askamanager.org/

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#488

Post by ALittleLight »

whatever_dude wrote: post #376
ALittleLight wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A teenage boy asked the master "How do I compose a symphony?" The master said "You're too young, you need to start with more modest projects." "But master" said the boy "you first composed a symphony when you were half my age!" "Yes, but I didn't ask anyone how." --- What I mean by this is that "hustling" is something of a unique, rare, or hacking like thing. You can't ask people how to do it, because if they could t…

What the US and specially the tech industry call "hustling" is bullshit sprinkled with self-delusion. For every successful history of someone hustling there's a thousand more of someone hustling just as much and not getting anywhere, and usually the ones being successful are getting there with generous help from unseen forces (network, relatives, etc). We need to stop idolizing hustling. Getting shit done without pre…

I think something like: You will never be a billionaire without hustling. You will likely never be a billionaire with hustling. Patient and hard work over a long period is the most consistent route to success.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#489

Post by satvikpendem »

snakedoctor wrote: post #400
okaram wrote: post #308

It is hard to figure out what the problem may be, without knowing you, so I won't try (feel free to PM if you want to do something like a mock interview). One thing that may suck, but want to make you aware is that chances are you need to do things worse temporarily, before they become better. You may need to put extra effort now (go to community college etc), for reward later. One program I'd suggest you explore is…

How can I get in contact with you?

Email me at the email address in my profile, I'll mock interview you as well.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#490

Post by JamesDeepDown »

A quick anecdote: interviewers HATE when you criticise previous employers. You complain at length about previous employers in your post, instead of talking about what you learned/experience gained. Ensure in interviews that everything you talk about is positive outcomes, NOTHING negative.
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