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Java Is Underhyped

jackson.sh

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Re: Java Is Underhyped

#51
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is poor choice as a language for teaching programming. There are simply too many irrelevant bits that will get in the way of learning.

Schools use it because it used to be the best way to get a job. Not anymore.

> Used to be the best way to get a job

Java is the most in-demand technology in my home country, Estonia. Java also has around 800 open positions at any given time where I live now (Buenos Aires, Argentina). In fact, pretty much everywhere I've looked, Java is consistently one of the best ways to get a job simply because it has the most jobs available.

HN favourites like Go and Rust? I haven't yet found a city in Europe that would have more than 10 job offerings for either of them.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#52
I'd admit it is very successful, since C++ already existed, it's a commercial miracle. But if you're still promoting Java in 2021, I'd say you're very shortsighted.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#53

Ah another new dev enamored with IntelliJ. You'd think one day they'd realize that it's the IDE they love, not the language. But in my observation, they never do. Reminds me of a rationalization I heard once about how people pick their brand of cigarettes. They all taste like crap until you're finally addicted, then the one you happen to smoke at the time is now your brand. Every new language / stack now gets compare…

The static types enable IDEA to do its magic. It's nowhere near as good for Python, JS, PHP, etc. C# support is great though.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#54
Being excited about Java is like being excited about dirt—not any particular dirt, just dirt in general. Yes, practically everything that grows grows in dirt, and anybody can walk on dirt, and in a pinch you can throw it at people or dig a hole and crawl in. Dirt.

Java was designed by people who had absolutely no intention or desire to ever use it. They cribbed parts from other languages they didn't really understand, and changed details in ways that make no sense on their own, or with other things they changed for actual reasons.

Their estimation of its expected users was very low, so they made everything dull and squishy so nobody could do much harm whether by mistake or deliberately.

It got billions of dollars more hype than it deserved on merit. Its privileged place in the corporate world, like its good tooling support, are direct products of that hype. The hype it got on first release, beyond the (very large amount of) money backing it, comes from a peculiar twist of history: right then, millions of programmers were sharecropping on Microsoft's plantation, and saw Java as their 40 acres and a mule. It was a balky mule, but it promised freedom from switching to a whole new app framework literally every 2nd year.

Since then, a very large number of libraries have been made to package most common operations. It's barely adequate for making libraries, but people have put a great deal of effort in because of the big user base.

"I enjoyed programming in Java, and being relieved of the responsibility for producing a quality product.":

http://blog.plover.com/prog/Java.html>

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#55
post #7

There are a few reasons to avoid Java today. - The programs are very verbose for the functionality they provide. There are countless lines of getters, setters, and trivial constructors. While IDE helps to write them, it makes reading existing programs slow and frustrating. Lombok helps, but very few programs use it. - If you do want to use Java ecosystem, there is Scala. It also has strong type system, nice IDE suppo…

Another reason to avoid:

Oracle owns Java.

This automatically puts Java on my list of tools I'd prefer to avoid for new serious projects. (Legacy projects; if it's working and it isn't an issue yet, maintenance.)

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#56
post #25

One word: Oracle. Given their insidious licensing and litigious nature, I wouldn’t touch Java with a ten meter pole.

I didn't see this when I wrote my reply under

theamk's post about

> There are a few reasons to avoid Java today.

Hard agree, and had the same thought BECAUSE Oracle.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#57
I align with most of these purists. But I don't think the verbosity matters. Its not a bottleneck when you're using Java because you shouldn't be in a position to care about such things. Hell, it's probably beneficial in the extensive SDLC you're probably working in.

Sure, java has its place and enables fine productivity in enterprise dependent workloads & scale; but that scale's complexity is often nominal, because what's unique about a traditional java-based system? Why would you use Java to be unique... the jvm is perfectly magical? nah.

Don't generalize engineering, lol, "feels good"... I think you mean "personally comfortable" which is what the oracles and jet-brains want you to feel. There is no art in java.

I'd struggle to invest so deeply or engrain myself in an enterprise setup vs whatever personal/business circumstances Id be in that situation. If you really want to be hip in that type of world go .NET

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#58
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the Scala language finally stable? I looked at it and discarded it multiple times over the last decade because every significant language revision required changing source code.

It's more unstable that ever with Scala 3 around the corner (which is basically a new language) and the May 1st Bintray shutdown that'll be massively breaking for the ecosystem. SBT builds were failing the other day from the Bintray brown-out cause all SBT plugins are still in Bintray: https://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/mph43t/sbt_build_fai...

I like Scala but that Bintray situation sounds like a nightmare.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#59
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schools use it because it used to be the best way to get a job. Not anymore.

> Used to be the best way to get a job Java is the most in-demand technology in my home country, Estonia. Java also has around 800 open positions at any given time where I live now (Buenos Aires, Argentina). In fact, pretty much everywhere I've looked, Java is consistently one of the best ways to get a job simply because it has the most jobs available. HN favourites like Go and Rust? I haven't yet found a city in Eur…

Go/Rust will get you hired in Silicon Valley working on "cool" teams. I believe a bunch of AWS teams are deep diving into Rust, and not to mention the hundreds of startups working in Go/Rust.

However, the sausage is still made Java. Amazon, Google, and Apple are, as far as a I know, primarily Java shops. It's just no one ever starts a blog with "Here's something cool I did in Java".

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#60
Java has gotten better over the years (borrowing good ideas from Scala) and is maintainable. They make a huge effort to keep Java backwards compatible, even across major releases.

I depend on some ancient Java libs and they still work just fine. It's a huge relief when major version bumps don't break everything.

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