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Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

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Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#11

Post by geofft »

snakedoctor wrote: post #7
codegeek wrote: post #5

Need more details to give you a more accurate feedback. How long you have been working/in the industry in general ? It seems like you have done a few things over the years but don't really seem to have stuck to something that made you a specialist or someone worth hiring. Being brutal here but making assumptions. Do you quit a lot ? Do you have any criminal records that you are not aware of ? Are you too opinionated…

I've quit a lot. I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months. I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation. Though I certainly agree that I need to stick with a job. I think ageism, and other biases are in place though. More years of experience I get the less disdained I will be I think. I don't think I'm a know it all. I'm only in my early 20s. I definitely have a lo…

Almost no company has the internal processes to adjust someone's compensation within two months. If you don't feel like your compensation at signing is appropriate, you need to figure it out then. Otherwise, your best shot is when the company's standard process is - end of year reviews, after one year at the job, whatever.

Also, at least in tech, almost no company will have made any serious attempt to evaluate your contributions after two months. It's assumed you're still figuring things out (both technical and social/political) and not making meaningful contributions until well past that point, and the nature of things you'll do even two years into a job are qualitatively different from those you're doing two months in (even if you are finding things that are valuable to do). So they don't have the data to re-evaluate you two months in, even if they had the process.

It is of course technically possible for someone sufficiently senior at the company (like, head of HR, C-suite, etc.) to override the standard process. But why should they do that for you? It's generally not in their interest, because it will endanger their own relationships with all the people under them implementing the standard process, even if it's the right decision, and they have no reason to be confident that it's the right decision.

I think that's something you need to figure out. What happened with the SVP/CISO phone calls that you mentioned in your post? What did you tell these people, whose job isn't recruiting candidates (there's a whole different department for that), to convince them to bypass the usual process and stick their own necks out and risk their own position to get you into the system? What did they say in return?

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#12

Post by bluefirebrand »

snakedoctor wrote: post #7
codegeek wrote: post #5

Need more details to give you a more accurate feedback. How long you have been working/in the industry in general ? It seems like you have done a few things over the years but don't really seem to have stuck to something that made you a specialist or someone worth hiring. Being brutal here but making assumptions. Do you quit a lot ? Do you have any criminal records that you are not aware of ? Are you too opinionated…

I've quit a lot. I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months. I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation. Though I certainly agree that I need to stick with a job. I think ageism, and other biases are in place though. More years of experience I get the less disdained I will be I think. I don't think I'm a know it all. I'm only in my early 20s. I definitely have a lo…

This is 100% your problem. If I worked someplace for two months I wouldn't even put it on my resume. On the flip side of that if I got a resume with only a bunch of 2 month jobs on it I wouldn't likely interview you.

As other comments have mentioned you have to stick to something for a while. You didn't even finish school so you cant even say "At least I stuck with my degree". The way you read to me is that you will jump ship the moment you aren't liking something.

> I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation

Two things about this:

If you don't feel the compensation is appropriate you shouldn't take the job in the first place. If you've been somewhere for a while and been a high contributor then ask for a raise. Two months isn't nearly long enough to make that assessment.

Also you say you contribute "a lot" but I'm betting that it's not as much as you think. It probably only feels like a lot because you haven't ever stuck around anywhere long enough to see what "a lot" looks like. Hint: It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#13

Post by bluefirebrand »

snakedoctor wrote: post #9
elmerfud wrote: post #2

You leave out a lot about yourself that would make you unhireable. From what you've written it sounds like you could form a decent resume for an entry level position. The biggest red flag I see is that it doesn't sound like you completed anything and you don't have any follow through / sticktuitiveness. Life happens and reasons happen but you didn't complete college, you complain about your entry level position at am…

Yeah, I think hiring managers think that I'm a quitter. I definitely think that I was whining too much about the Amazon role. Beggers can't be choosers. However, the no health insurance thing rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like it was a dead end job. I wish that I would've stayed with it though. I probably would've been promoted by now. I need to stay with a job and rack up some years of experience for sure. Like I…

> I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my frist two weeks

You won't ever get a promotion within two weeks, especially not over a single instance of good work. Do it a hundred more times, then think about a promotion.

I think you seriously need to re-evaluate your expectations about this stuff.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#14

Post by objectivetruth »

1) You mentioned "ageism" so I assumed you were toward the older end of the typical range, but then you said you're in your early 20s? Yeah, no offense but you're basically a kid with no portfolio and no proven job history who dropped out of college, so you're probably not going to find a job that offers health/dental. And that's not "ageism" -- lots of the places you mentioned hire people in their late teens or early 20s -- that's just your inexperience.

2) Don't talk about how you spotted some system deficiency three levels above you and reported it. That's just going to creep people out. And that is NOT the sort of thing that makes a manager think you're Good Will Hunting and say "What's that genius doing in the call center cubicles? Get him an office and insurance right away!" Instead they are 100x more likely to say "Yes, drone, we're all well aware of that issue, get back on the phones."

3) You're cold-contacting SVPs at Dell? Spoofing contact whitelists to get through their phone systems? Yeah, this isn't "War Games," so you're about 1000x more likely to anger somebody than you are to impress them with your skillz. There are the "normal" channels of getting a job (the HR application route) and the "usual" channels (having a friend at the company get you hired)... but anything else (walking into an SVP's suite) is really, really unlikely to help.

I mean this well -- twenty years ago, I was a college freshman dropout with no portfolio, no connections, and a rural drawl -- so you CAN succeed. But I had some rough years and I had to put in my dues as an entry-level help desk grunt before rising up as a sysadmin.

* Get some sort of stable job and don't quit it until a year has gone by AND you have a signed offer letter in hand for a provably better job.

* Don't give up on Medicaid! In most states and most scenarios, you're MUCH more likely to get decent subsidized ACA healthcare than you are to find a job that gives you insurance within 90 days, let alone 30 days. But you gotta do the research and the legwork.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#15

Post by brundolf »

Have you tried talking with a recruiting agency? I notice you've mostly applied at household-name companies, many of which are very competitive. The majority of the tech jobs out there are not at companies you've ever heard of. Recruiters (third-party, not in-house) are motivated to find you something that's a good fit because they get commission (from the company) based on you getting hired. They'll coach you, help you with your resume, draw from a huge pool of companies to find something that's just the right fit. Their job is solving this exact problem.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#16

Post by objectivetruth »

snakedoctor wrote: post #6
giantg2 wrote: post #4

Maybe check your criminal record. My wife was getting denied from every application. She later found out there was an incorrect conviction on her record and had to get it expunged. Also, you seem to be listing big name tech companies and startups. Have you tried looking at non-tech companies? Sometimes the medium to small non-tech companies are more forgiving about not having a degree. I'm not sure where you are loca…

I'm not sure how to check my criminal record. Last background check by Amazon was clear. I've never even got ticked for jay walking. I tried googling my name and nothing came up. Pretty sure I have to pay for a company like ADP to do a background check on me. I think background checks usually happend post offer. I've tried applying to some smaller companies who might be willing to take a risk on me. Haven't had any b…

I gave you a bunch of advice earlier but then I saw this: "I'm not sure how to check my criminal record. "

Don't be the type of person who says that. Be the type of person who says "I didn't know how to do that so I spent 30 seconds Googling it and now I do."

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#17

Post by viraptor »

kubanczyk wrote: post #3

Chances are you somehow act really creepy, which you do not see yourself. Ask a friend for a mock interview. Record it and watch later. Don't have a friend? Hire someone. A friend cannot do mock interviews? Hand them a list of 10 questions that you remember from all those previous attempts and tell them to read it in solemn voice. Nowadays the interviews are remote. Let a friend observe your interview and then ask th…

> Ask a friend

Or ask not-a-friend. A random person who is skilled in interviewing and doesn't have a personal relationship with you may give you more true answers.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#18

Post by void_mint »

Have you tried asking any of the jobs that rejected you're getting rejected?

Honestly, just a guess, you're probably giving off bad interpersonal vibes/people don't really like talking to you. Half of interviewing is just being very personable/being able to talk comfortably with other people. Generally in this space (this space meaning those interested in tech/startups/etc) sometimes people struggle in this area but really shine in tech. I would encourage you to spend some time reflecting on your interpersonal skills.

Some other red-ish flags from your post - you kinda seem like you might struggle just doing exactly what you're asked to do. Bringing up how frequently you quit things for various reasons or finding issues and bringing them up with your superiors' superiors, spoofing numbers to get in touch with very very senior people. Lots of lower-tiered jobs literally just need people to show up and do what they're asked. A part of getting a "first" or "entry level" job is accepting you're there mostly to learn, not to teach/move outside of your lane. The fact that you would even bring up Bill Landreth seems like you might not necessarily see yourself how the rest of the world sees you.

I'm not trying to offend you - I really hope you can line something up soon. I apologize if this feedback seems cold - I think reflecting on things like this can be hard because you have to face things about yourself you may disagree with or not realize. Unfortunately interviewing is such a biased game, you kind of have to play your opponent (meaning, be the person they want, not the person you are).

Happy to chat through any of this stuff if you have questions. Wish you all the best.

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#19

Post by geofft »

What do you have to offer the companies you've applied for?

It's deeply unjust we live in a society where simply being a person isn't enough to merit having a home and medical care, but that problem isn't going to be solved in time to help you.

Or, in other words, I'm not going to say "The world doesn't owe you a job" - but the world certainly acts as if it doesn't owe you a job, and you need to deal with that.

If I were a customer support manager and wanted to hire you, what would make me hire you over someone else? From your post, it sounds like the things you have to offer are that you'd help other parts of the company with their problems, and you'd want to transfer internally in well under a year. That's maybe good for the company, but that's not good for me - I don't get any recognition (or even headcount) for things my new hires on customer support do to help other random parts of the company, I'm evaluated on whether my customer support people do customer support. And new hires need to be trained on the company's procedures, which takes a while, so if they leave after a year - even if it's better for the company in the long term - that time is largely wasted.

Sure, you're providing value to the company. But that value is measured by one specific person, your boss. What are you telling potential bosses that you'll do? When they ask you about how you've brought value in previous jobs and about what you're likely to do, do they leave that conversation with the impression that hiring you will be a good decision for them personally?

I hope you're telling them things other than how you went off solving other problems unrelated to your job, no matter how cool it was.

It sounds like you're smart. Point that smartness in the direction of making it financially worthwhile for someone to hire you. You need to offer them more benefit than they offer you, and you need to offer them more benefit than the other applicants for the role would.

(So, if you want good compensation, you need to offer then quite a lot of benefit.)

Re: Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?

#20

Post by shytey »

snakedoctor wrote: post #7
codegeek wrote: post #5

Need more details to give you a more accurate feedback. How long you have been working/in the industry in general ? It seems like you have done a few things over the years but don't really seem to have stuck to something that made you a specialist or someone worth hiring. Being brutal here but making assumptions. Do you quit a lot ? Do you have any criminal records that you are not aware of ? Are you too opinionated…

I've quit a lot. I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months. I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not getting appropriate compensation. Though I certainly agree that I need to stick with a job. I think ageism, and other biases are in place though. More years of experience I get the less disdained I will be I think. I don't think I'm a know it all. I'm only in my early 20s. I definitely have a lo…

I do some hiring for my company, and if I saw a resume with numerous <2 month positions it would be a red flag. Try lowering your expectations, find any position and stick with it. You can continue to apply for better roles while you have that job. Worst case you end up there for 6 + months which looks much better on a resume. Best of luck!
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