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Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

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Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#261

This is a catastrophe and very disappointing. Here is a little personal anecdote: I used to live in the center of Berlin Mitte when I was a student, had rented a Penthouse apartment for 450 Euro/mo incl. additional costs (but without water, gas, electricity). It was affordable. Then a Bavarian multimillionaire bought the house from the original owners. I was already abroad most of the time, so I didn't experience the…

Renting a penthouse/dachgeschoss apartment in Mitte costs more like 2k nowadays.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#262
post #86

Keep in mind that when they say Berlin's rents are soaring, it's still comparatively cheap for large cities in Germany.

That is simply not the case anymore. Neither are the sale prices low anymore. You will now pay same m2 price as in West-est west, like at the border with Switzerland.

Please compare Berlin prices with Hamburg, Dusseldorf or Munich. It's really not close, Berlin is largely still 10-15€/sqm, peaking to 20.

Similar offers in e.g. Hamburg are 20, peaking to 30€/sqm. And it's been this way for a decade or two. Having lived in Hamburg, whenever I was with Berlin friends and heard their complaints, they usually turned into being happy for the good fortune not to have to pay those prices when they compared it not with Berlin 10 years ago, but with Hamburg today.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#263
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon Berlin has >€80k for entry level roles.

FAANG typically pay more than everyone else. Also sites like glassdoor report 70k for the average Berlin Amazon Software Engineer Salary. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Amazon-Software-Development...

[deleted]

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 80k+ salaries. Last time I intensively job searched in Berlin there was a clear salary ceiling at 70-75k EUR annually for software roles.

Amazon Berlin has >€80k for entry level roles.

I was interviewed onsite at Amazon's Berlin office. The breathless technical marathon ensured me they're place for toxic assholes and the only motivation for going through the process could be above the market salary. Having given up on trying during the process I truly regret the time I wasted on dealing with them.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#265
I'd venture a guess and say I'm very much an outlier in the HN crowd, because I consider myself a socialist. Even with that said, I don't really understand the long-term logic behind rent caps, and I don't think it does much for fighting the old trope that "socialists are economically illiterate" either.

If you have a finite supply of something, like housing, it seems pretty obvious that the reason the price is going up is because the supply is unable to catch up with demand. Not only do more people want to live in the city, they're also willing and able to pay more. The mechanics are obviously more complex because this is all affected by things like interest rates, influx of foreign capital and whatever, but I think the basic assumption still stands: there's not enough housing.

So if we approach this problem from a "neo liberal" and a "socialist" point of view, I think there are two ways you'd normally go about it, none of which include capping rents because that achieves nothing except make people hoard the commodity that was previously rare, and is now even more rare because of market manipulation:

Neo-lib: The market will take care of it, and poor people being pushed out is not a problem, they can live somewhere cheaper and new housing will be built because builders want to make money.

Socialist: Poor people have a right to live here too, but there is a lack of affordable housing. We should tax the rich to enable a wider array of housing financed by the state.

Regardless of which extreme (or somewhere in between you are) I still can't understand what rent caps would achieve apart from being a destructive policy for almost everyone except the ones who already are lucky enough to have a contract. You don't get more houses to live in by making the houses a more valuable commodity through market manipulation.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#266
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the details of the Berlin situation, but as long as someone lives in those new apartments (who would have lived in Berlin anyway), it helps with the housing shortage and prices. Someone moves to the new, most expensive apartment in the city, someone else moves to their now vacant slightly less expensive apartment, etc. At some point in the chain that means there's cheaper housing available. This is a con…

In Helsinki I'm wondering if building expensive buildings will make sure the 'bubble' won't break. Banks will just give people larger loans. Move to a situation like Sweden where you don't even intend to fully pay it back anymore. You're just renting from the bank instead of a landlord.

Same in Switzerland. The taxation laws and low interest rates lead to a perverse incentive where people get million CHF apartments that they never pay off because if they do pay it off their real tax rate would go up tremendously. So they just make interest payments on the debt.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#267

Keep in mind that when they say Berlin's rents are soaring, it's still comparatively cheap for large cities in Germany.

Irrelevant unless compared to local salaries, which as far as I know, are still lower than the rest of German cities.

Rents are ~30% lower (my estimate based on my experience), salaries are ~10-20% lower (varies over industries, not really relevant for large companies). Sounds like you're still getting a good deal if you live in Berlin.

Many other things are cheaper as well. Power is -10% in Berlin for example, compared to Hamburg. Local taxes are also lower, e.g. business tax rate in Berlin is 410% while it's 470% in Hamburg.

I get the impression that it's mostly the citizens of Berlin not knowing what things cost elsewhere.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#268
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are dozens of appicants for each flat anyway, with or without the cap. Not everyone can just buy a place, if rents keep increasing only rich people will be able to afford living in the city, you need a lot of non-rich people to actually run the city though: cashiers, nurses, teachers, firefighters etc. It's not that easy.

I know the market isn't perfect, but in theory if lowly paid workers can't afford to live in the city anymore they'll start looking for jobs elsewhere, which will force their employers to raise wages.

Sorry to be so blunt but that theory is really just false. There are no jobs elsewhere, the jobs are in the city. I'm also not a "lowly paid worker", I'm in the highest quartile of income in my country and work as a full-time researcher at university. Nevertheless, there is no cap on the rents in my area and they continuously increase even for my existing contract. They have increased sometimes by several hundred percent for new contracts in my area, so if we ever had to leave our current apartment, we'd be forced to spend more than 3/2 of our salaries on rent alone. Even relatively well-off families will have troubles getting affordable living space in the foreseeable future, thanks to AirBnB, hostels, and long-term investments into (right now mostly empty) luxury apartments. How the average family can do it in my country is mysterious to me, but I'd wager most of them only can because they have very old rent contracts which do not have in-built rent progression.

The market forces you refer to are fictitious. What happens in reality is that the middle class is dwindling, there is an ever increasing divide between land and house owners and mere renters, and at some point in the more distant future the whole system will break down.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#269
post #36
post #11

I wish Berlin would just build more housing instead. For example when I cross the street there is a supermarket. It's a single story building with a huge parking lot around it. Why not make it a multistory building with apartments on top of the supermarket and skip the parking space or put it underground? Why does the city give out building permits for such buildings? There could easily be room for thirty families on…

Because the road and other related infrastructure may not be ready for the increased FAR ratio yet?

Sounds a bit like concern trolling if this is used to stop or delay building new apartments that people would love to move into.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berlin with its Red-Red-Green government is hardly a city governed by xenophobia. OTOH, the German left is even more pro-immigration and pro-multiculturalism than an average European leftist party. This law was probably meant against big housing corporations like Deutsches Wohnen, which bought a lot of the housing stock during previous privatizations, and so have some power on the housing market. IMHO Berlin (just li…

Tempelhoferfeld is the best park in Berlin. Parks provide value too. They should build up instead of sprawling like the most terrible cities in the world do.

> They should build up instead of sprawling like the most terrible cities in the world do

When I was in Berlin, it seemed to me people in Berlin wanted the impossible combination:

- Continue to afford to live in the city (ergo more housing in the city)

- No sprawl to keep the car traffic down (ergo still more pressure on housing in the city)

- Keeping the green spaces (so no denser housing)

- No higher buildings, or God forbid, high-risers (so no denser housing)

Or better said, you would find people, who are dead set against high-risers and would tolerate building on Tempelhofer Feld, or who are dead set against using spaces within the city (Tempelholfer Feld), but would probably tolerate higher buildings.

It seems now, higher buildings have won: https://www.berlin.de/rbmskzl/aktuelles/pressemitteilungen/2...

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