Live data from Hacker News

Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

dw.com

191–200 of 370 posts

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#191
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in recent months the Tesla Giga Berlin factory has shown just how fast construction can take place if the people in power actually want it to happen. Building new housing units in the city slows the increase in value of existing real estate, which is why property owners are not rushing to allow the construction of new structures. Lobbyism is a powerful force in real estate.

To be fair, it's not he people in power it's the construction companies. The amount of workers on a building site in Germany is way lower than in other places. And then you get the ones where they put 2-3 people for 2-3 weeks every 6 months.

Depends. Public construction is very different from private and industrial construction. As the industry pays well, on time and demands results, their construction sites are staffed to the fullest amount possible and complete astonishingly fast.

Public construction on the other hand goes with the cheapest bidder, so doesn't pay that well. Also, the state will only pay after a lengthy process of inspections and trying to find something wrong with the finished building. So lots of companies just avoid public bids, because they cannot afford to finance all the materials and work pay for the duration of the build. Those that can afford it are companies that specialize in public construction sites, usually designed to be able to go bankrupt at the first sign of trouble.

Generally, in a public construction site, all contractors are lowest bidders. Some do intentionally bid lower than cost to get the contract. What they then try to do to recoup their cost is to try to find some problem that wasn't spelled out in the bidding, or to wait for some change of plans or regulations. Because they then can bill a lot more for the additional work and material necessary to fix the problem, or hold up the construction site in lengthy court proceedings. Because everyone knows that something like that will happen at some point, they intentionally go as slow as possible, waiting for the order to drop everything and wait for the courts. Because if they are quick and invest a lot of work and material, they might not survive the delay.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#192
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why not increase the price to the point where 90% of contenders lose interest Because that's illegal, even without the rent cap in Berlin.

A market response to supply and demand is illegal? What law would do that if not a rent cap?

§ 291 StGB Wucher

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#193
post #107
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are building a massive amount of houses, but they are too expensive for the average Berlin citizen.

I don't know the details of the Berlin situation, but as long as someone lives in those new apartments (who would have lived in Berlin anyway), it helps with the housing shortage and prices. Someone moves to the new, most expensive apartment in the city, someone else moves to their now vacant slightly less expensive apartment, etc. At some point in the chain that means there's cheaper housing available. This is a con…

In Helsinki I'm wondering if building expensive buildings will make sure the 'bubble' won't break. Banks will just give people larger loans. Move to a situation like Sweden where you don't even intend to fully pay it back anymore. You're just renting from the bank instead of a landlord.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#194
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of unused space is Berlin is just so massive. Even in Friedrichstraße, which is a hype neighborhood with great amount of activity, you have hundreds of square meters completely unused, with wild plants growing around and random waste accumulating. From what I understand it is very difficult to do something with that space, either because people refuse to sell or because of bureaucratic red tape.

> The amount of unused space is Berlin is just so massive. What's wrong with that? Enjoy the little green space you have left while it lasts. Have a BBQ with friends over there, maybe? The gentrifiers/developers won't be so long to remove every last bit of green and freedom in your neighborhood, as they did everywhere else.

I think you wouldn't enjoy your BBQ in a place like this, which is I think the OP refers to: https://www.alamy.com/berlin-germany-new-buildings-and-indus...

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why collect rent when the property price keeps increasing regardless? Saves you from having to deal with the tenants and saves you tons of worries/busywork like: - How tedious will it be to find suitable tenants (do you want to go through 1000 emails)? - Will they make a mess of the place? - Will they call you at random times to complain about neighbors? - Will you have to organize and deal with mechanics when e.g. t…

> Why collect rent when the property price keeps increasing regardless? Because then you get the property price gains and the rental income on top! I don’t doubt this is happening, I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.

As an individual person with a heart, it's hard to wrap one's head around. But the problem is landowners are usually very rich and soulless, when not actual corporations who have nothing human at all. To them, an empty apartment is just a line in a spreadsheet that will bring them money sooner or later. Renting the apartments would be more trouble for them, despite bringing in a little more money.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#196
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why not increase the price to the point where 90% of contenders lose interest Because that's illegal, even without the rent cap in Berlin.

A market response to supply and demand is illegal? What law would do that if not a rent cap?

Rent control prevents from increasing by more than a set amount every year. Theoretically you can wait for decades raising the rent every year

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#197

Here are some examples of ways berlin could have increased the amount of affordable housing: 1. Build more housing on land that is already owned by Berlin State 2. Increase the amount of housing support available to low income families 3. Prevent the migration of social housing units to the private market by extending existing contracts. 4. Close loopholes in the Mietpreisbremse that allowed landlords to dramatically…

Only #1, #5 and #6 would actually improve the situation and not be a zero-sum game, the rest is socialism, just rehashed.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#198
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The amount of unused space is Berlin is just so massive. What's wrong with that? Enjoy the little green space you have left while it lasts. Have a BBQ with friends over there, maybe? The gentrifiers/developers won't be so long to remove every last bit of green and freedom in your neighborhood, as they did everywhere else.

I think you wouldn't enjoy your BBQ in a place like this, which is I think the OP refers to: https://www.alamy.com/berlin-germany-new-buildings-and-indus...

Actually i did quite a few times! I would not recommend to live in a place like this due to high industrial pollution, but a brownfield is quite nice to have a neighborhood BBQ with some music... COVID/police concerns aside, of course.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A rent cap is a clear sign that the capitalist system is broken and we need a better system to match the housing needs and supply without feeding into heartless vampires who'd rather have empty apartments than rent them at a reasonable price.

Quite the opposite actually.Increase capitalism and reduce government control and you get more housing.

That's not how it turned out in the UK. As this graph illustrates, when the local government authorities were prohibited from building more housing, from the 1980s onwards, the private sector didn't pick up any of the slack: https://i.stack.imgur.com/MmJ5N.png

The capitalists instead decided to optimize for steadily increasing the price of housing by restricting supply, so these are now primarily seen as an investment with nearly-guaranteed returns, rather than places for people to live.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#200
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why not increase the price to the point where 90% of contenders lose interest Because that's illegal, even without the rent cap in Berlin.

A market response to supply and demand is illegal? What law would do that if not a rent cap?

There are multiple kinds of rent caps. One is the maximum annual raise for existing tenants.

Another one is vague and based on the "Mietspiegel", which lists appropriate rents according to quality and location.

If the rent exceeds this by too much, you can sue for "Mietwucher" (rent usury).

Post reply on HN