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Bernie Madoff has died

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Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#121

Post by mpalmer »

kiba wrote: post #98
cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

What is this obsession with jailing people? Prison is pretty inhumane, especially in the context of a limited lifespan. Even if we're immortal, it's still inhumane. Moreover, how does making people go to prison fixes anything? It's just a way to assign punishment and blame people.

Time is the only asset we all mostly have in common. If your laws and the enforcement thereof are just (big if), then why shouldn't the punishment be exacted in a way that generally affects everyone equally?

Beyond that, prison is inhumane as a rough function of where you are. Maybe you're thinking of a particular prison system.

How does it fix anything? It should primarily be a deterrent, and secondarily a way to protect society from dangerous people.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#122

Post by slibhb »

I was always fascinated by how violently people felt toward Madoff. Madoff reminds me of a character in a Woody Allen movie. Martin Landau in Crimes and Misdemeanors.

In Dosteovsky, the perpetrator feels real guilt, confesses, and finds salvation in God. In Woody Allen, the perpetrator gets over his guilt and lives happily ever after, avoiding punishment. In Madoff's case, the perpetrator dies in prison and his family is destroyed.

Of the three, Madoff killed no one. In some sense I think he was a scapegoat for the 2008 financial crisis. That's not to say that he was innocent or that his crimes were insignificant. Only that, due to the timing, he became a convenient target for the public's understandable outrage over the financial crisis.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#123

Post by cogman10 »

kiba wrote: post #98
cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

What is this obsession with jailing people? Prison is pretty inhumane, especially in the context of a limited lifespan. Even if we're immortal, it's still inhumane. Moreover, how does making people go to prison fixes anything? It's just a way to assign punishment and blame people.

What the US most commonly jail's people for (drug offenses) is barbaric.

That said, the reason for jail is to not only rehabilitate but also to deter.

The problem we have is that white collar crimes almost never result in jail time for the rich. The financial deterrent is just ineffective at stopping bad behavior. They can run the risk/rewards calculations and often come up with the conclusion that "we'll make more money than we lose to a fine" and they proceed to do the bad behavior.

A good example of this is fireworks at disneyland. They pay fines for their daily displays and write it off as a cost of doing business. So what's the point of the fine? Weren't we trying to stop them from launching fireworks or was it just to extract money from a theme park?

Now imagine if the action for launching fireworks was the general manager of disneyland or their manager serving 2 days in jail. I can assure you, those fireworks would be stopped the next day.

That's the point. If the law is only a set of rules for the poor how can anyone be confident that it is going to work or be applied fairly? If you can buy your way out of compliance then what's the point?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#124

Post by lotsofpulp »

danielbarla wrote: post #65
lotsofpulp wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There could be some value attributed to being able to use gold as a store of value and currency in the event of a dissolution of modern society such that the internet or widespread electricity is no longer around.

Sure, but this is based on the idea that the innate uses and value of gold would be similar (or "relatively high") after such a transformation of the world. This is not clear to me at all, compared to say, a similar wealth invested into a large cache of firearms and ammo. Or whatever will happen to be useful, depending on the scenario. It reminds me of an anecdote from my grandfather from the end of WW2, people were…

Firearms and ammo are a necessity, but one person/small tribe can only defend against so many others. What you really need is a community (or bigger tribe) that will come to your aid, and the community will need to be able to trade between themselves and others, which is where gold comes in.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#125

Post by JMTQp8lwXL »

saalweachter wrote: post #97
tim333 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin isn't really a ponzi scheme though, just an asset that gets bid up. In a ponzi you pay in x and are promised x+50% or some such and the scheme fails when there isn't money to pay out x+50%. With bitcoin you buy for price x and sell for price y which may be higher or lower. Different thing. It can't fail, just go up or down in price.

Eh, I'm comfortable calling Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme because all profits extracted by early investors come from later investors. That's, like, a very specific and applicable definition.

That's how the stock market works as well.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#126

Post by nemacol »

mc32 wrote: post #107
nemacol wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the % of income idea.

What do you do with crimes committed by people who have little in earnings (students, unemployed, etc.) or folks who earn “$1” in income but obviously are otherwise wealthy?

Interesting question.

I imagine someone has already thought of this from a tax point of view.

Maybe some % of their net worth divided by their age (working age?) - say if they have 100 million dollars and are 60. 60-18 = 42. We would fine X% of 2,380,952.38? The idea being an attempt to come up with what their yearly salary could have been based on current value.

I am sure there are some excellent flaws with that approach as well.

Fun to ponder.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#127

Post by cogman10 »

mpalmer wrote: post #121
kiba wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this obsession with jailing people? Prison is pretty inhumane, especially in the context of a limited lifespan. Even if we're immortal, it's still inhumane. Moreover, how does making people go to prison fixes anything? It's just a way to assign punishment and blame people.

Time is the only asset we all mostly have in common. If your laws and the enforcement thereof are just (big if), then why shouldn't the punishment be exacted in a way that generally affects everyone equally? Beyond that, prison is inhumane as a rough function of where you are. Maybe you're thinking of a particular prison system. How does it fix anything? It should primarily be a deterrent, and secondarily a way to pr…

I have a sneaking suspicion that if more billionares spent time in prison, we'd see massive reform on the prison system towards the humane.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#128

Post by spamizbad »

Madoff was arguably a victim of cancel culture before we had coined the term. Punished by woke capital for his whimsical approach to finance and investing. A titan cut down by his lessers.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#129

Post by comprev »

cletus wrote: post #81
nemacol wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that a system of public service / community service requirements instead of fines would be better for common offenses? Without any real research I have often thought that instead of fines for parking violations, noise complaints, (other misdemeanors) etc - having someone spend time instead of money would make those sorts of punishments more equitable. There are issues - child care if a parent has to spen…

The criminal justice system already does this extensively. Often people are sentenced to community service. So I guess your question is really should this be extended to more low-level offenses like minor traffic violations? It's an interesting question. In Switzerland, for example, speeding above a certain level ceases to be a fixed fine and is instead a percentage of your income. I'm a fan of that. Fixed fines tend…

Same in Finland I believe. The fine is a % of your annual income.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#130

Post by [deleted] »

soneca wrote: post #33

Madoff made his ponzi scheme last 17 years with a limited network. Imagine how long a ponzi scheme accessible by the whole world could last. Possibly forever (or at least longer than my lifetime). I am thinking about Bitcoin here.

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