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Bernie Madoff has died

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Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#101

Post by dboreham »

user-the-name wrote: post #57
mumblemumble wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is not, in any way, a Ponzi scheme. It may be the subject of a bubble, it may be subject to market manipulation, it may still play a part in any number of scams or frauds beyond the ones that have already been identified, some of which themselves may be Ponzi schemes. But, even if, for the sake of argment, all of those and more were true, Bitcoin itself would still not be a Ponzi scheme. It is and would still…

Bitcoin may or may not intentionally be a Ponzi scheme. But that doesn't matter, because functionally, there is no difference between an intentional Ponzi scheme and Bitcoin. Bitcoin trading is a negative-sum game. All winning that anyone gets comes out of the pockets of newer investors. There is no net inflow of value or money that could cover the gains people make trading, other than the money being put in by other…

Bitcoin is as much or as little a ponzi scheme as things like the US dollar.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#102

Post by [deleted] »

breck wrote: post #10

> clients entrusted him with more than $19 billion in principal > Irving Picard, the trustee appointed to unwind the accounts, had recovered more than $14.3 billion Wait WHAT?? That's only a 25% loss. Not the 100% loss I assumed. Does anyone know more?

[deleted]

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#103

Post by amelius »

nemacol wrote: post #59
cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

Do you think that a system of public service / community service requirements instead of fines would be better for common offenses? Without any real research I have often thought that instead of fines for parking violations, noise complaints, (other misdemeanors) etc - having someone spend time instead of money would make those sorts of punishments more equitable. There are issues - child care if a parent has to spen…

I want to see FAANG CEOs do public service, instead of being fined pennies.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#104

Post by capableweb »

dangerbird2 wrote: post #23
bidirectional wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Madoff had no problem defrauding charities and pension funds. Hardly Robin Hood.

To be fair, most robinhood-esque folk heroes had no qualms about robbing the poor along with the rich, e.g. depression-era bank robbers.

I'm sorry, but how are "depression-era bank robbers" in any "robinhood-esque"? They all did their actions for personal gain.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#105

Post by slg »

tim333 wrote: post #61
soneca wrote: post #33

Madoff made his ponzi scheme last 17 years with a limited network. Imagine how long a ponzi scheme accessible by the whole world could last. Possibly forever (or at least longer than my lifetime). I am thinking about Bitcoin here.

Bitcoin isn't really a ponzi scheme though, just an asset that gets bid up. In a ponzi you pay in x and are promised x+50% or some such and the scheme fails when there isn't money to pay out x+50%. With bitcoin you buy for price x and sell for price y which may be higher or lower. Different thing. It can't fail, just go up or down in price.

So the only difference is that returns aren't guaranteed at either the upper or lower bounds? Sounds like a Ponzi scheme just with more risk.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#106

Post by MisterBastahrd »

nemacol wrote: post #59
cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

Do you think that a system of public service / community service requirements instead of fines would be better for common offenses? Without any real research I have often thought that instead of fines for parking violations, noise complaints, (other misdemeanors) etc - having someone spend time instead of money would make those sorts of punishments more equitable. There are issues - child care if a parent has to spen…

Common? Sure.

Well educated, comfortable people who rob others of their livelihood? They deserve state penns, just like the poor folks who got three strikes for walking off with hedge clippers.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#107

Post by mc32 »

nemacol wrote: post #99
cletus wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criminal justice system already does this extensively. Often people are sentenced to community service. So I guess your question is really should this be extended to more low-level offenses like minor traffic violations? It's an interesting question. In Switzerland, for example, speeding above a certain level ceases to be a fixed fine and is instead a percentage of your income. I'm a fan of that. Fixed fines tend…

I like the % of income idea.

What do you do with crimes committed by people who have little in earnings (students, unemployed, etc.) or folks who earn “$1” in income but obviously are otherwise wealthy?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#108

Post by zymhan »

kiba wrote: post #98
cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

What is this obsession with jailing people? Prison is pretty inhumane, especially in the context of a limited lifespan. Even if we're immortal, it's still inhumane. Moreover, how does making people go to prison fixes anything? It's just a way to assign punishment and blame people.

You can't just fine billionaires and expect that they'll reform.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#109

Post by anoonmoose »

From Wikipedia:

"On June 22, 2009, Sorkin hand-delivered a customary pre-sentencing letter to the judge requesting a sentence of 12 years, because of tables from the Social Security Administration that his life span was predicted to be 13 years."

Letter was submitted 11.81 years ago.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#110

Post by petercooper »

zabzonk wrote: post #47
mumblemumble wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is not, in any way, a Ponzi scheme. It may be the subject of a bubble, it may be subject to market manipulation, it may still play a part in any number of scams or frauds beyond the ones that have already been identified, some of which themselves may be Ponzi schemes. But, even if, for the sake of argment, all of those and more were true, Bitcoin itself would still not be a Ponzi scheme. It is and would still…

Those who got in early made almost infinitely more than those who got in later (or who lost) - classic Ponzi scheme.

Those who got in early made almost infinitely more than those who got in later (or who lost) - classic Ponzi scheme.

So did people who invested early in Apple, domain names, or property in Manhattan. I think the bare minimum you'd need to define something as being a Ponzi scheme is, well, a scheme - that is, an intention to defraud people, and I don't see such intent in the creation of Bitcoin.

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