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China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

economist.com

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Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#291

Post by fuckyouandyours »

mcphage wrote: post #285
fuckyouandyours wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you look at the infighting within the US that is front page news every day...the decline is in full swing. I don’t see how there’s any other option either. At this point there a multiple “factions” who’s end vision of society is actively hostile to certain other factions.

> At this point there a multiple “factions” who’s end vision of society is actively hostile to certain other factions. Some time ago there was even an active shooting war between US factions, and yet the country still was ascendant afterwards.

Sure, when the nation was still pretty young and the world was much different with many great powers, there was a civil war. Do you really think the US could maintain dominance if half the nation went to war with itself again, in more modern times? Not that I think any future conflict would be remotely similar.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#292

Post by paulmd »

blaser-waffle wrote: post #279
paulmd wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone considers, let's say the UK or Canada as a "micro-dictatorship". The UK and other parliamentary systems have fewer checks and balances with a deliberate orientation to producing a government with a mandate to rule, for example the leader of the executive branch is always of the same party as the legislature. I think the US system is probably a de-optimization from that approach. This is just feti…

> The US system is actually not particularly good compared to other western liberal nations, due to the aforementioned frequent inability to form a government with a mandate to lead. What other western nations? Examples, please. If the choice is dictatorship that absolutely suppresses me, or a liberal government that panders a little harder than it should to virtual signal, I'd gladly take the latter any day of the w…

> What other western nations? Examples, please.

You're literally replying to a comment that gave examples. Please don't post in bad faith as if there were not examples given, that's not a positive discussion.

> What does a world led by China have to offer anyone

never said it did, again, putting words in my mouth is not a good-faith discussion and I ask that you stop.

More than glad to reply if you'd like to engage with the ideas I've discussed. It's not my job to repeat my post 27 times line-by-line, or to defend arguments that I did not make.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#293

Post by BitwiseFool »

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #143
pcbro141 wrote: post #69

Why did the US let its infrastructure get to such a bad state? And why are there so many dilapidated neighborhoods and literally crumbling schools? The US is filthy rich, couldn't they have fixed these things decades ago? Just spend hundreds of billions investing in neighborhoods that have historically been intentionally left to rot? Is it just disdain for the people who live in the crumbling areas? Serious question.…

Attempt of a serious answer: it seems like it's really Republican (party) ideology that government should be small enough to be able to be drowned in a bathtub, and any amount of money for the people is deemed sinful. Never mind that it makes sense to build good roads, fast trains, and even good schools to educate people. Seems like the GOP has a "If we do x, that will prove our propaganda all this time has been wron…

Even Blue States have deficient infrastructure and lackluster public education. There are plenty of Blue States with Democrat super-majorities in state legislatures where the GOP can safely be ignored. Yet, the problems persist.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#294

Post by rkuo1234 »

skywal_l wrote: post #180
k_sze wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Mainland Chinese do you actually know? Have you talked to them? My in-laws are all Mainland Chinese. They have access to safe and good tap water, either back in their home town literally in the mountains or in a big city like Wuhan. Air quality is not great, I'll give you that. But it's also not the worst, at least not in every measure. E.g. many big cities in China had lower NO2 levels than other big cities…

> they've seen past the values of the West Interesting. What would you consider are the values of the West? And, in your opinion, what are the values of the Chinese society? And don't you think there are overlaps and so, which one? No retorical questions, I am truly interesting in your answer.

I am very much agree k_sze's comments, I will add some of mine. Chinese's group (family/school/party/country) feeling is stronger/higher priority than a individual. This is recognized and accepted without any government's push. Although most of Chinese is atheist, good portion of common religious believes are considered as a philosophy and is built in social normal, everyone expect to follow. They have less bias toward other ethnic groups, most of time they enjoy each others' difference through each other's food. They very much believe nothing is impossible to some degree of foolish, this leads them to take some long term projects that could not justified in normal ROI alone. Professionally, they respect farmer and scholars higher than politicians and business people, this does not stop them wanting be rich. I think there are many overlaps with old West value.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#297

Post by earthboundkid »

kwere wrote: post #242
earthboundkid wrote: post #120

I just don't see how the US keeps together. The disconnect between the two sides is, on the one hand, not based on anything concrete. So maybe we can patch it up somehow. Like, before the Civil War, slavery is a real thing with real human and economic effects. Today though, conservatives are mad about what exactly?… It seems like they're mad about a generalized disrespect which the mainstream culture has towards them…

yeah, blue good, red bad

I can’t tell whether your comment is agreeing or mocking.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#298

Post by Balgair »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #199
dgudkov wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West is on the rise technologically and in decline socially. But I wouldn't be too quick to call the decline irreversible . The democracy is still in a good shape despite some challenges. The West went through many crises. This is not the first one, and not the last one. So far, nothing indicates that the social crisis is irreversible and the West won't be able to bounce back.

> The democracy is still in a good shape despite some challenges. What political pathways do you see for correcting both our two-party system and increased gerrymandering? It seems to me like those two factors are large contributors to our increasing political polarization, and fixing them would require the political parties to behave irrationally from a game theory perspective.

Gerrymandering is being fought at the state levels with some real teeth now. A fair few states have laws already on the books, and many more are considering such laws. It's by not means a solved issue, but awareness of it is quite high and there is real activism towards ending it.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#299

Post by MisterBastahrd »

mcphage wrote: post #283
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military dominance is only insurmountable and complete when it's a credible threat, and ours hasn't actually won a war of note in over half a century. The best we've ever done in that timeframe has been to supplement military leadership that was already in place, and we've failed to even accomplish that half the time. The US military is a money pit.

> The US military is a money pit. Yes, but it's a very visible money pit. Its purpose is to discourage any other country from throwing their own money into a similar pit by competing.

We could have spent a quarter of the money we did and had the same outcome. There's absolutely no reason for the US to subsidize peace for the rest of the planet to the degree that it does. Every other liberal democracy on Earth gets to enjoy affordable housing, subsidized healthcare, affordable or free college educations, pensions, and a nice fat bank of vacation hours every year. We get a bunch of morons in blue who barely got out of high school using military grade gear on our own citizens because the armed forces has too much of it.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#300

Post by earthboundkid »

Ancapistani wrote: post #257
earthboundkid wrote: post #120

I just don't see how the US keeps together. The disconnect between the two sides is, on the one hand, not based on anything concrete. So maybe we can patch it up somehow. Like, before the Civil War, slavery is a real thing with real human and economic effects. Today though, conservatives are mad about what exactly?… It seems like they're mad about a generalized disrespect which the mainstream culture has towards them…

> Today though, conservatives are mad about what exactly?… It seems like they're mad about a generalized disrespect which the mainstream culture has towards them. And fair enough, they aren't imagining that. It's a bit more than that. A growing proportion of conservatives see the world very differently than their left-wing counterparts. This is most easily demonstrated at the moment by the fact that 60% of self-ident…

I’ve heard my right wing family members talk about voter fraud since at least 2000, but it’s basically a symptom of the bigger problem, which is a failure of belief in human nature. Changing the topic briefly, how do I know that 9/11 was not an “inside job”? Do I know anything about whether jet fuel melts steel or surveillance of the Pentagon hit, etc.? No, I do not. How then? Well, I know human nature, and so I know a conspiracy involving thousands of people cannot be hidden successfully for twenty years.

Okay, so was there widespread voter fraud in 2020? Prior elections? I’m not an expert in election monitoring, but again, I know about human nature and the mainstream media, so I know that if there were, it would be known.

But the Republicans have decided they just don’t believe in Americans anymore, so they don’t trust anything. It makes unity impossible. I think the only cure unless something really changes is divorce.

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