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The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

vivaldi.com

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Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#91

"Please switch to a browser that supports FLoC to view this page." [Links to Chrome, etc.] "This website requires a browser that supports FLoC. Please install one of the folllowing compatible browsers: " [Links for Chrome, etc.] "We've detected you are using a browser that does not support FLoC. Please update your browser to use this website." [Links to Chrome, etc.] "Your browser is outdated! Please upgrade." [Links…

I'd love to ditch javascript entirely. Is there an android browser that supports that?

That same Vivaldi does have a JS toggle.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#92
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, the only browser that could ignore FLoC without being blocked by website is Safari. If Safari chooses not to implement FLoC, it might be sufficient to prevent web developers from blocking other non-FLoC browsers. All of this rest on Apple standing up for privacy through.. so watch for any announcements from Apple.

Why wouldn't sites that rely on FLoC block Safari if the browser doesn't implement it?

iOS is too lucrative of a market to ignore. It is like not selling cars in California. Every car manufacturer conforms to California emissions standards because California is too lucrative to ignore.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#93
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, the only browser that could ignore FLoC without being blocked by website is Safari. If Safari chooses not to implement FLoC, it might be sufficient to prevent web developers from blocking other non-FLoC browsers. All of this rest on Apple standing up for privacy through.. so watch for any announcements from Apple.

Why wouldn't sites that rely on FLoC block Safari if the browser doesn't implement it?

Websites need Apple. Apple doesn't need them.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#94
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, the only browser that could ignore FLoC without being blocked by website is Safari. If Safari chooses not to implement FLoC, it might be sufficient to prevent web developers from blocking other non-FLoC browsers. All of this rest on Apple standing up for privacy through.. so watch for any announcements from Apple.

Why wouldn't sites that rely on FLoC block Safari if the browser doesn't implement it?

Because of Market Share.

Which is just another reason – maybe even a responsibility of every web dev - to stop using chrome.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#95
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is FLoC built in a way where you couldn't just feed websites fake data?

You definitely could. Though apparently in incognito mode it's recommended that browsers just throw an exception rather than provide fake data: https://github.com/WICG/floc/blob/dcd4c042fa6a81b048e04a78b1...

Throwing an exception in incognito mode allows websites to detect incognito mode, which is not desirable. Incognito mode should provide fake data.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#96
post #78

Anyone using Vivaldi full-time? As a Firefox user, I find I have to install a number of third-party extensions to get some basic functionality that Vivaldi has out of the box (ad-blocking, note taking). Anyone made the switch, and, if so, can you share your experience?

I jump between Vivaldi and Firefox, and I love both browsers. Currently I use Vivaldi more than Firefox. Here's what I like in both:

Firefox:

- Multi-account Containers extension is amazing. I only use it for a handful of accounts, but it is very simple to use. This is probably the feature I miss most in Vivaldi.

- The interface integrates better with my DE (Cinnamon), and overall feels less cluttered. Vivaldi has some kind of bar on each edge of the window. Toggle UI (Ctrl+F11) helps to hide this, but Vivaldi does take more space away from the webpage.

- I use uBlock Origin for adblock which seems to block more than Vivaldi by default. Vivaldi's built-in blocker is really great though, and I haven't felt the need to install an extension for adblock in Vivaldi.

Vivaldi:

- I love the recent addition of a second tab bar[0], though I was skeptical at first. I can quickly stack tabs by host to declutter, and then see all the tabs on a second row with full details when I select the stack.

- The experimental builtin RSS[1] and Email panels are wonderful. Still some rough edges, but it is nice to not rely on another tool or service for RSS, and it is my favorite RSS reader I have used so far because it is simple and stays out of my way.

- Many more tab management features. Saving tabs as a session, tiling, stacking, periodic reload, etc. Not all features I use daily, but handy when I need it.

Overall, I've settled on using both browsers now. Each has strengths and weaknesses and I will use whichever helps me best in the moment. I'd say give it a try, and don't think about it as a switch, rather as a new tool.

[0]: https://help.vivaldi.com/desktop/tabs/tab-stacks/

[1]: https://help.vivaldi.com/mail/mail-feeds/feeds/

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#97
post #78

Anyone using Vivaldi full-time? As a Firefox user, I find I have to install a number of third-party extensions to get some basic functionality that Vivaldi has out of the box (ad-blocking, note taking). Anyone made the switch, and, if so, can you share your experience?

Yes. I used Opera before, and Vivaldi is as close as one could get to that Opera It leaks memory for me on macOS. Not sure whether it's its own bug or if it's the Nvidia driver.

On the built-in ad blocker, I don't use that on my computer (uBlock Origin is way better) but I do use it on my phone. I don't use notes either, IMO there's no good reason this should be part of a web browser.

The tab grouping is a cool feature. The ability to screenshot the entire page is also a cool feature, but there's a bug that causes it to capture anything with border-radius without anti-aliasing, I reported that as VB-56521 on 26/08/2019 and it still isn't fixed.

Overall, there's this lack of attention to detail that permeates all their products and sometimes drives you crazy, but it's still way better than all other browsers that redesign their UIs every several years for no benefit to the user.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#98

"Please switch to a browser that supports FLoC to view this page." [Links to Chrome, etc.] "This website requires a browser that supports FLoC. Please install one of the folllowing compatible browsers: " [Links for Chrome, etc.] "We've detected you are using a browser that does not support FLoC. Please update your browser to use this website." [Links to Chrome, etc.] "Your browser is outdated! Please upgrade." [Links…

This would be boring if it weren't so serious. It's damn time that the Googles of this world were brought to heel with legislation that has real teeth — i.e.: the levying of fines worth 20% upward of annual turnover as well as heavy fines levied on employees who concoct, design and or deliberately participate in introducing or maintaining these scams.

Once employees are also targeted and held responsible for their actions at law then we stand a chance of getting at least some of our internet back.

Google, Facebook and their cohorts are outrageous, they have been stealing our internet with complete impunity for over two decades like a metastasizing cancer. We users really do need to get proactive over this, if not then soon the internet will be effectively dead for many of us—we'll be left ghettoized in some outpost or alternatively we'll be forced to abandon it altogether. We may even need to resort to street demos or marches to convince politicians that the rotten, monopolistic behavior of Big Tech is no longer to be tolerated.

It's also time we banned non-human entities (aka corporations) from lobbying politicians in private. Any lobbying by them ought to be done at public hearings specifically held for the purpose (corporate lobbying has probably done more damage to our Democracies since the Civil War or even earlier than any single other factor.)

"As someone who routinely uses a browser that does not support Javascript,"

Likewise, my browser has JavaScript turned off by default. 1vuio0pswjnm7, what you failed to mention was how much faster webpages render without JavaScript, when it's switched off the speed improvement is enormous, also all that jerkiness and unevenness of presentation disappears. (As I've posted many times, it's not JavaScript that's the main fault-it's the enormous abuse websites commit using it. It's nothing nowadays for a webpage to be anywhere between 2 and 5MB in size, and on inspection a huge percentage of that code is devoted to serving up you private data to surveillance capitalism. Reality check: remember a standard page of text is only 2kB!)

"Javascript engine has zero effect on the browser's ability to display the information I need from the site. And I still get the info 100% of the time anyway, if I really want it."

Exactly right! Take note website owners who present blank pages when JavaScript is turned off: I used to find it a challenge to get your pages which I then proceed to do anyway. Now I no longer bother, as I've learned that websites that use such scummy lowdown tactics aren't worth visiting anyway. From my observation there's a remarkable correlation between such behavior and the [lack of] quality of the material on the website.

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#99
post #33

Recent related threads: Brave disables Chromium FLoC features - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26765084 - April 2021 (335 comments) Am I FLoCed? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26755313 - April 2021 (33 comments) Google’s FLoC Is a Terrible Idea - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26344013 - March 2021 (348 comments) I know there have been others - if anyone finds them, I'll add to the above list.

A bit off topic but I'd love to see a sort of ML/AI feature where "related discussions" can be added automatically for added context, I appreciate you do this manually and I find it very useful to get more of an idea of the relevance/importance of a topic!

(Maybe even a "HN search found 3 possibly related threads")

Re: The Vivaldi browser will not support Google’s FLoC

#100
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take a stab. Suppose your browser told every website you visited that you had the identifier "FAANG", and your friends web browser told every website they visited: "FAA_G" (b/c obviously they don't have netflix). Per the linked article, the browser is filling in the blanks "___N_" as you visit each website, but it's telling each website not _what_ site you visited, but that you are in the groups of "FAA_G" vs. "…

If I am reading this right (and you seem to have read it the same way) it ends up creating a browser fingerprint. Visit 1 FLoC and they have no real idea who you really are. But if you visit several they could easily tell. Which is similar to how they use your installed list of fonts to identify you. But more formalized?

That compromise would require knowing who someone actually is between site and site - you could collect the full list of cohorts but you'd need additional information to be able to marry all that data together - let's say something like facebook injecting JS into every page on the internet to harvest cohort information and then gleefully reselling that information.
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