China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline • Hacker News Board

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#191

Post by rafale » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

jszymborski wrote: post #174

rafale wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I used to believe, that a totalitarian regime can never compete with a free society. The USSR tried and failed. But China is something different. They are extremely competent. And they are past their copy cat phase. I don't believe they have a creativity issue. I think the free society model is failing given how easy to dissipate false information, especially the kind that get people riled up against each…

We stopped being a community not because we are a free society, but because we stopped communing. This pandemic has been a comical caricature of how people have been living lately; siloed in their own homes, only interacting through an internet connection. This has made us incredibly susceptible to realities distorted by interested parties. Again, a free society is our only way out of this. When I get my vaccine in t…

Great advice, thanks. I agree we all have to do our part in safeguarding our way of life, big or small.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#192

Post by objectivetruth » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

throwaway20875 wrote: post #185

vict7 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I get the feeling that 'unpopular' is just a euphemism for 'racist' here. You're saying you want to cancel cancel culture? Like look, I'll give you that there exist an incredibly small fraction of people that actually embody the spectre you are trying to conjure here. We have so so many more pressing issues in this country than fear of wokeness--like the rise of domestic white-supremacist terrorism.

Can you share any data points on the rise of domestic white supremacist terrorism? I'm genuinely interested in what kind of threat this poses.

The same computer and Internet connection that you used to post this message of "genuine interest" will also allow you to -- independently -- search for tons of actual US government reports and independent academic studies of US white supremacist terrorism, the arrests made, deaths and injuries caused, etc.

In fact, I'd bet you can find 100 of those papers before you can find a single peer-reviewed study demonstrating any macroeconomic impact of "somebody said something racist on the Internet and everybody yelled at them!"

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#193

Post by EdwinLarkin » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

newdude116 wrote: post #159

EdwinLarkin wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. At least it's drinkable and not poisoned like in China. 2. No it is not. Have not you seen the dystopian reality of Beijing from last month? 3. Chinese healthcare is hazard on its own. 4. I have. China is not attracting anyone on a comparable level like the EU or the US. Also you dont get to stay and work in China even if you married someone from there.

2.? Are you serious? This was a sandstorm, a very natural phenomenon. In fact, I love sandstorms since they remind me of my best times in Beijing. 3. They have clinics that would make most western clinics cry. Yes, they charge like western clinics too. But I have been for a minor thing in a normal Chinese hospital, a friend of mine had his appendix removed and another US friend of mine got a major surgery in a Chines…

Very natural phenomenon that is caused by Chinese deforestation and exploitation of the country.

>4. Don't know where you have been. Shanghai and Beijing is full of young and ambitious people from all over the world. They look for the future, not for the past. I was an immigrant in the US myself (also have an US passport now). The US was always closed for me. Zero opportunities. In China it is a brand new world. Opportunities, ambition, money. I consider it my home.

How much does CCP pay these days? Do you get sponsored tours to Chongqing ?

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#194

Post by felle_realist » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

pcbro141 wrote: post #91

rafale wrote: post #15

The west is in decline because progressive values don't promote strength. They focus on class and are inherently divisive. Ironically, they only blossom in strong societies. The decline will allow other societies with a more conservative philosophy to take over and it will be their turn in a few centuries to succumb to the same tragedy. The baizuo tragedy.

Progressives and 'woke politics' are the reason the US let its infrastructure crumble? I don't follow your logic. You are saying progressive weakness is the reason America has let its infrastructure crumble, and why America doesn't have universal healthcare, why its education system isn't as good as it should be? That sounds wrong. I see a lot of claims lately that 'woke politics' are the reason the US has let itself…

The adoption of critical theory as a base for policy directions ("woke politics") is not what caused infrastructure to crumble. Infrastructure crumbles because it costs money to maintain while it does not return profit in the short term when maintained. In the long run crumbling infrastructure leads to a loss of profit or opportunities for such but by then those who decided not to invest in maintenance are long gone from their positions.

However, the adoption of critical theory does play a significant role in bringing about the decline of western society since it leads only to deconstruction of existing structures without providing functional alternatives.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#195

Post by dgudkov » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

Daho0n wrote: post #23

It's very hard to disagree IMO. The west is in decline and unless something catastrophic happens in PRC or war breaks out (also pretty catastrophic) I can't see any future where the PRC isn't going to at least become on par with the US soon but most likely it will succeed it as top dog. The only question in my mind is where do the EU end up in all this and if Russia will become closer with PRC or EU. IMO the biggest…

The West is on the rise technologically and in decline socially. But I wouldn't be too quick to call the decline irreversible. The democracy is still in a good shape despite some challenges.

The West went through many crises. This is not the first one, and not the last one. So far, nothing indicates that the social crisis is irreversible and the West won't be able to bounce back.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#196

Post by vgchh » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

It’s a sad but emerging reality.

Though if we can trade - corporate-ism for innovation, complacency and entitled-ness for hard work, political brainwashing for issue based activism, gradual progress for leap frogging - I would still bet on America.

While it’s a bit late, there is still a chance for America to re-establish itself as the leader. If we don’t wake up for another 5 years, we may indeed be on an irreversible path.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#197

Post by newdude116 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

EdwinLarkin wrote: post #193

newdude116 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2.? Are you serious? This was a sandstorm, a very natural phenomenon. In fact, I love sandstorms since they remind me of my best times in Beijing. 3. They have clinics that would make most western clinics cry. Yes, they charge like western clinics too. But I have been for a minor thing in a normal Chinese hospital, a friend of mine had his appendix removed and another US friend of mine got a major surgery in a Chines…

Very natural phenomenon that is caused by Chinese deforestation and exploitation of the country. >4. Don't know where you have been. Shanghai and Beijing is full of young and ambitious people from all over the world. They look for the future, not for the past. I was an immigrant in the US myself (also have an US passport now). The US was always closed for me. Zero opportunities. In China it is a brand new world. Oppo…

The gobi desert should be very old. You may have a point that it is growing, but:

"The Gobi Desert is expanding through desertification, most rapidly on the southern edge into China, which is seeing 3,600 km2 (1,390 sq mi) of grassland overtaken every year. Dust storms have increased in frequency in the past 20 years, causing further damage to China's agriculture economy. However in some areas desertification has been slowed or reversed.[15]

The expansion of the Gobi is attributed mostly to human activities, locally driven by deforestation, overgrazing, and depletion of water resources, as well as to climate change.[15]

China has tried various plans to slow the expansion of the desert, which have met with some success.[17] The Three-North Shelter Forest Program (or "Green Great Wall") was a Chinese government tree-planting project begun in 1978 and set to continue through 2050. The goal of the program is to reverse desertification by planting aspen and other fast-growing trees on some 36.5 million hectares across some 551 counties in 12 provinces of northern China.[18][19]"

"How much does CCP pay these days? Do you get sponsored tours to Chongqing ?"

No idea. They pay nothing to me. But I would happily take a passport. I going to get permanent residence rights through marriage. Otherwise I would attempt to become a HK citizen, since you cant get a mainland passport and the green card option is not very tempting on current legislation.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#198

Post by ceilingcorner » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #179

Daho0n wrote: post #23

It's very hard to disagree IMO. The west is in decline and unless something catastrophic happens in PRC or war breaks out (also pretty catastrophic) I can't see any future where the PRC isn't going to at least become on par with the US soon but most likely it will succeed it as top dog. The only question in my mind is where do the EU end up in all this and if Russia will become closer with PRC or EU. IMO the biggest…

The US's antiquated and ossified political system with its focus on minoritarianism and gridlock-as-a-design-objective are a major cause. As long as it's possible for ~30% of the country to drag everything to a halt, not a lot is going to get done. The push to restrict voting rights only amplifies that, but the real problem is that the US system is not built to produce a "mandate to lead", it is designed with an exce…

There are a ton of issues with your thesis.

- The US is a impregnable continent with oceans on both sides. Poland is a flat plain surrounded by historical enemies. Congress isn't the Sejm and a single veto doesn't halt legislation. No one is going to invade the US and significant legislation still gets passed regularly. Poland also didn't have the entire apolitical infrastructure of the CIA, FBI, NSA, state governments, etc.

- Misinformation has always existed. The idea that somehow everything was true and honest back when we only had 3 TV stations is naive at best. The media has lost control of the narrative and they no longer have the power they once did to control information. It's as simple as that.

- You are assuming that the problem here is government and not culture.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#199

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

dgudkov wrote: post #195

Daho0n wrote: post #23

It's very hard to disagree IMO. The west is in decline and unless something catastrophic happens in PRC or war breaks out (also pretty catastrophic) I can't see any future where the PRC isn't going to at least become on par with the US soon but most likely it will succeed it as top dog. The only question in my mind is where do the EU end up in all this and if Russia will become closer with PRC or EU. IMO the biggest…

The West is on the rise technologically and in decline socially. But I wouldn't be too quick to call the decline irreversible . The democracy is still in a good shape despite some challenges. The West went through many crises. This is not the first one, and not the last one. So far, nothing indicates that the social crisis is irreversible and the West won't be able to bounce back.

> The democracy is still in a good shape despite some challenges.

What political pathways do you see for correcting both our two-party system and increased gerrymandering? It seems to me like those two factors are large contributors to our increasing political polarization, and fixing them would require the political parties to behave irrationally from a game theory perspective.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#200

Post by centimeter » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

vict7 wrote: post #136

centimeter wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> putting that time toward actually cleaning up neighborhoods or tutoring underprivileged youth The US has tried again and again these naively optimistic programs targeting “neighborhoods” and “the youth”, to no avail whatsoever. The terrible reality is that the long-term prospects of a civilization are inexorably dominated by its demographics, and the demographics of the US are spiraling down towards disaster. We ha…

What sort of eugenicist bs is this. Do you have a single source to back up these claims?

> Do you have a single source to back up these claims?

I have many. You should start with these:

https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jense...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/pdf/mp2...