China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline • Hacker News Board

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#101

Post by thepasswordis » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

EdwinLarkin wrote: post #86

endisneigh wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is factually untrue. By pretty much every imaginable metric China has improved for nearly everyone (in China) for the past 50 years. Is this also true in the USA? I don't think China is superior to the USA, but to say China is in a "irreversible decline" is ridiculous. https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/celt/eng/jmgx/jjxs/t124869.htm https://www.visualcapitalist.com/china-economic-growth-histo... https://www.cfr.org/ti…

It is factually true. Chinese have access to poisoned shitty water that everyone has to boil first and that's not only because of that chi bullshit. Meanwhile I have access to delicious spring water from Alps. China has achieved only superficial changes that will bite them in the ass in the future.

Yeah except China actually cares about continuing that improvement. You've got that spring water now, but who is working on getting you a newer, better spring water, and has anybody called them a racist sexist misogynistic homophobic demon yet?

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#102

Post by shashwatak » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

j_walter wrote: post #35

They are probably not wrong. When you look at the infighting within the US that is front page news every day...the decline is in full swing. People care less about how to actually improve the country than they do about trying to hold entire professions accountable for the actions of a few (not just cops)...then we are focused on the wrong things. Spending hundreds of days protesting something instead of putting that…

So, you’re suggesting that the USA is in decline because marginalized groups are demanding equal treatment?

I’ll agree that police violence is a symptom of much larger systemic issues, but you seem to be implying that the larger systemic issue is... people are unhappy with the USA and they should stop being unhappy and support the USA.

Have you considered why they might be unhappy, why they may very well have legitimate grievances?

Perhaps we can strengthen our union by addressing these centuries old grievances? My understanding of your post is, you just want them to stop complaining without doing anything to help them.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#103

Post by throwaway-70b8 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

How long has China's thumb been on the scale?

Does anyone really believe the wumao is limited to China? The CCP has its hands in everything. Social unrest, identity politics, political correctness. They're patient, easier to overthrow the west by sowing internal division and weakness than guns and armies.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#104

Post by fsociety » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

I agree that the "West" is in a decline, and I'm hopeful we can get out of it. The issue I have with these articles is that it suggests the "West" has always ruled the world, when reality is a bit different. The US was never hegemonic over Russia, China, or India.

China also has some serious issues to tackle related to their massive growth and demographic problems. This is made worse by their unwillingness to open up their markets and try to fight the US on consumer spending - which powers much of the economic power that the US has.

China tries to control the narrative as it is advantageous to do so. Reality is, I think India's economy has more chance to overtake the world than China but nothing is for certain.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#105

Post by mempko » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

rafale wrote: post #15

The west is in decline because progressive values don't promote strength. They focus on class and are inherently divisive. Ironically, they only blossom in strong societies. The decline will allow other societies with a more conservative philosophy to take over and it will be their turn in a few centuries to succumb to the same tragedy. The baizuo tragedy.

So you consider China (which is winning) a society with a more conservative philosophy? I didn't realize China is a small-government free market place...

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#106

Post by dougmwne » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

For all the hand-wringing over the decline of the West, it never seemed very likely to me. Half the world's GDP comes from the liberal democracies of North America and Europe. That economic and political power is not going to bow down to any other world power that is not ideologically aligned. The West will do business with China for exactly as long as it's in the West's interest. If the pandemic has taught us anything, it's that supply chains can change and businesses can adapt when required to.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#107

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

EdwinLarkin wrote: post #86

endisneigh wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is factually untrue. By pretty much every imaginable metric China has improved for nearly everyone (in China) for the past 50 years. Is this also true in the USA? I don't think China is superior to the USA, but to say China is in a "irreversible decline" is ridiculous. https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/celt/eng/jmgx/jjxs/t124869.htm https://www.visualcapitalist.com/china-economic-growth-histo... https://www.cfr.org/ti…

It is factually true. Chinese have access to poisoned shitty water that everyone has to boil first and that's not only because of that chi bullshit. Meanwhile I have access to delicious spring water from Alps. China has achieved only superficial changes that will bite them in the ass in the future.

[deleted]

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#108

Post by jean_tta » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

In the long term, the West (Europe at first) went from at best a not particularly interesting place compared to, say, China to the global hegemon because

1. it became much better at war than the others [0]

2. it became much richer than the others [1]

Much has been written about how Western values and/or institutions and/or any other causes led to 1 and/or 2 and the interplay between 1 and 2.

The warfare advantage is primarily tech-based against peer enemies. Training and sheer size may matter against asymmetric foes but against China it's basically whoever has the best technology.

Given the relative size of Western countries and the rest of the world (China is about four times as big as the US for instance), the West needs to be many times richer per capita to be a larger economic power than China or India. Note that the West used to be a much higher percentage of the world population in the past.

There's a lot of catching up both in technology in particular, including military technologies, and economic catch up more broadly; it is very unlikely that the West can leap again and grow/innovate so much faster than China & India can't catch up enough to dominate.

People in this thread seems to be too focused on what they see as a cultural decline within the US and not see the economic and technology long term catch up.

[0] see for instance https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691139708/wh...

[1] see for instance https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691090108/th...

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#109

Post by SubiculumCode » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #40

rafale wrote: post #15

The west is in decline because progressive values don't promote strength. They focus on class and are inherently divisive. Ironically, they only blossom in strong societies. The decline will allow other societies with a more conservative philosophy to take over and it will be their turn in a few centuries to succumb to the same tragedy. The baizuo tragedy.

I hate to break it to you, but progressive values aren't why the dictators of the world walked all over the US for the past 4 years.

That's ridiculous. No dictator has walked all over the US in the last 4 years or ever. Anytime we failed diplomatically it occurred with the knowledge that our military dominance was insurmountable and complete, but that it's use indiscriminately would not serve our overall diplomatic strategic policy of caring about human rights, and self-imposed limits on how we use our military. Any of our failures in war against dictators etc directly stems from self-imposed limits on how we use our military power. We could literally glass them but we don't. Thank goodness.

Re: China is betting that the West is in irreversible decline

#110

Post by newdude116 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

EdwinLarkin wrote: post #33

That's ridiculous.China is the one in irreversible decline. Most people in the West get to enjoy freedom and access to utilities money cant buy in China. 1) For once most people in the west have access to safe and good tap water.Chinese urban dwellers dont. 2) Most people in the west live in places with significantly better air quality than chinese. 3) Most people in the west get to enjoy freedoms chinese cant even t…

1. Well, maybe in Europe. tap water in the US isn't especially good.

2. Air quality is improving fast.

3. The the right to unaffordable health care?

4) Obviously you have never lived in China. Sorry to break the news to you. Yes, China is attracting young people from all over the world too.