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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#241

Post by blendergeek »

geofft wrote: post #167
b215826 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so? While you may not care about it, GPLv3.

That was sort of the opposite of competent: - Because it was a new license, it necessarily resulted in license fragmentation, which is an ongoing headache for the free software community. It's worth doing if there's a serious need that outweighs the costs and you can guide the community towards dropping the old license, but.... - The Linux kernel had always been GPLv2 only and remained GPLv2-only, which meant that th…

> - Of the major issues around software freedom and digital autonomy today, approximately zero of them are TiVoization - and, as described above, that's not because GPLv3 was wildly successful in combating the threat, it's because it turned out not to be that pressing of a problem.

I'm not really sure how you define "software freedom" or "digital autonomy". What I do know is that the majority of phones sold today run Android. Despite being technically "open source" and therefore free software, it is impossible in practice to replace the software due to "secure boot". This is what GPLv3 was intended to combat. I agree that it was a failure (it turns out corporations _really_ don't want us choosing our own software).

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#242

Post by jMyles »

Osmose wrote: post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

I did not even know about this stuff (but can now see what are perhaps the reasons why my comment elsewhere in the thread are being downvoted).

Is there a place I can quickly catch up on these events?

I also don't think that the foot skin eating thing is a non-starter. People are weird; I can live with that.

But the other stuff is obviously troubling.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#243

Post by kitsune_ »

So, with all the talk about RMS being on the autism spectrum in the last threads on this topic, with RMS speculating about it himself, and now this letter where he talks about his problems about interpreting social cues: To me this reads if he never bothered to get an official diagnosis? Since there is a lot of stigma that comes with neurodevelopmental disorders and mental health in general, I get that this is a highly private matter. That said, if it's the case that he truly suspects that he is on the autism spectrum but never bothered to get a diagnosis that would somewhat be a bad sign to me just on a general level, considering all the push back that he obviously got from people because of his behaviour.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#244

Post by pseudalopex »

simion314 wrote: post #234
koheripbal wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accounts that act poorly, usually do so in multiple ways. Banning accounts for bad behavior will likely curb other undetectable bad behavior. HN is a bit unique. I suspect it is less influenced by bad behavior because it is small enough to fly under the radar.

You would think so because is hard to notice, I would not have believed it until I seen it with my own eyes, it was an article about RMS and there was a good discussion in the comments , in 5-10 minutes the entry was gone from the first pages, it was flagged, I think there were around 2-- comments in the end but most readers missed the article and instead they could see more then one day old stuff. My proposal is to…

People started flagging anything about Stallman because there were over 100 submissions in 2 weeks.[1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26713636

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#245

Post by dahfizz »

chc wrote: post #210
NotSammyHagar wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah, can you provide a citation for that?

From emails posted here: https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... > The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky: > “deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein’s victims [2])” [ ... ] > We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing.

Here is the full quote:

We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates.

He literaly said the girl was being coerced by epstein to _appear_ willing. Not that she was a willing participant. You are grossly misrepresenting what was said.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#246

Post by jraph »

Udik wrote: post #212
meowface wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also say the Vice headline is almost as dishonest, even if it's not saying he defended Epstein: "Famed Computer Scientist Richard Stallman Described Epstein Victims As 'Entirely Willing'". Stallman did use those two scare-quoted words, but the headline is trying to paint it in a completely, fundamentally different light from the point he was attempting to make. He may have been insensitive (as he says in this sta…

> almost as dishonest, even if it's not saying he defended Epstein: "Famed Computer Scientist Richard Stallman Described Epstein Victims As 'Entirely Willing'". Why "almost"? It's false, and clearly so for anyone who has the literacy needed to write that piece. It's entirely dishonest.

Did you read "almost as dishonest" as "almost dishonest"?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#247

Post by kitsune_ »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #115
luckylion wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. This is such a weird concept to me. I have no problems getting social cues, it comes natural to me. Doing it purely intellectually? I wouldn't have a fucking idea how to. I think it's similar to doing pretty lame things like walking. It's a complex task that you can only do because you do it automatically. If we had a pill that wo…

It's a thing those of us on the spectrum have a bit of a challenge with. Whether people on the autism spectrum are high-functioning or not, probably the top question is "are you mad?" because it is often hard to tell. However, I don't feel autism should be used as an excuse for bad behavior. I take responsibility for my actions and words, and so should RMS.

I think one of the problems is that he speculates about being on the autism spectrum but it looks like he never bothered to get a diagnosis, which then to me also means that he probably is not receiving potentially helpful advice that could improve his interactions with neurotypical people.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#248

Post by Udik »

philpem wrote: post #158
howeyc wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because having opinions is not something to apologize for.

If your "opinions" hurt people then yes, that is something to apologise for.

Not at all. If your opinions are correct, and yet they hurt someone, do you need to apologise? Or maybe you think that it's impossible for a correct or reasonable opinion to hurt others? Because in that case I have tons of counterexamples.

A lot of people were offended by the theory that man descended from apes. Do you think Darwin should have apologised?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#249

Post by Osmose »

rantwasp wrote: post #163
Osmose wrote: post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

one thing that bothers me in the context of cancel culture is that it seems people put the equal sign between the work/art someone produces and their ideas outside of that area. Having wrong or plain stupid ideas does not mean you should die and all the [brilliant] work you are doing should go to waste. the bigger the target you attack, the better. right? what is your contribution to this world? they are not even clo…

> one thing that bothers me in the context of cancel culture is that it seems people put the equal sign between the work/art someone produces and their ideas outside of that area.

It often depends on what that outside work is; if RMS was a bad soundcloud rapper, I couldn't care less, it's inconsequential. If he was a known puppy puncher (which he isn't), I'd care a lot more, because that matters so much to me that I don't want to even remotely support anyone like that.

But in this case the complaints aren't "outside of that area", they're directly related to his role as a leader of the free software movement. His harassment of people directly hurts other people in the movement and people who potentially could join and help out. His musings on pedophilia are not simply unacceptable, they directly lead to people dismissing the movement because they fear joining a movement that abides such opinions. That they are both is part of what makes him unfit.

> all the [brilliant] work you are doing should go to waste

I believe that the opportunity cost of keeping someone like RMS in a leadership position is higher than the accomplishments he achieves by that position. It's not simply a "cancellation" for some abstract moral reason, it's that he is _not worth it_ compared to what could have been achieved with the people he pushed away.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#250

Post by ocdtrekkie »

kitsune_ wrote: post #247
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a thing those of us on the spectrum have a bit of a challenge with. Whether people on the autism spectrum are high-functioning or not, probably the top question is "are you mad?" because it is often hard to tell. However, I don't feel autism should be used as an excuse for bad behavior. I take responsibility for my actions and words, and so should RMS.

I think one of the problems is that he speculates about being on the autism spectrum but it looks like he never bothered to get a diagnosis, which then to me also means that he probably is not receiving potentially helpful advice that could improve his interactions with neurotypical people.

Definitely plausible. I think he probably is on the spectrum, and yeah, could benefit from taking some time to learn how to cope with how that affects his interactions with others.
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