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I'm the guy who bought 259684 Bitcoins for under $3000 yesterday

forum.bitcoin.org

201–210 of 319 posts

Re: I'm the guy who bought 259684 Bitcoins for under $3000 yesterday

#201

The community that for months has been preaching the virtues of the currency nobody can control is suddenly arguing that a middleman should roll back a bunch of free-market transactions. I decided a while ago that arguing against the "bitcoin has no problems" crowd was futile: people are too enamored with the idea to see problems like this until they happen.

From the message board:

"Folks, in the grown-up world, trades are unwound when the market malfunctions. --Jeff Garzik, bitcoin core dev team"

In the grown-up world, currency is controlled by governments, the financial industry is regulated, and money cannot be transferred large distances anonymously. The whole sales pitch of BitCoin is that it is free of all this control. Invoking "the grown-up world" to describe BitCoin is absurd.

Re: I'm the guy who bought 259684 Bitcoins for under $3000 yesterday

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it as he was watching a market free fall and was looking to capitalize on it. He had no way of knowing if the sell order was fraudulent. It could have been someone trying to drastically crash the value of BTC, but still a legitimate owner. Buying them through MtGox wasn't the same as buying bitcoins out of the back of some guy's car. What about people who had standing buy orders? They could never had known abo…

> I read it as he was watching a market free fall Yeah, I think initially there was that. But after he bought he began to suspect there was fraudulent activity. And he still transferred the money out. The problem was not the buying, it is suggesting the MtGox is responsible for providing him with a free lunch now. > wasn't the same . . . No, but there was a commonality in that foul play was suspected. The point of th…

So if I get word that Anonymous is planning on doing another blitz trying to create a rumour that Steve Jobs has died, would I be wrong to short Apple? It doesn't matter whether the forces moving the market are legitimate or not; you can't be faulted for playing it. What you're advocating might be moral, but it's not in keeping with the principles of a free market.

Re: I'm the guy who bought 259684 Bitcoins for under $3000 yesterday

#203
That was a great read. If I was Kevin I would give the coins back and not do business with MtGox any longer. It's clear their systems are not secure enough to handle these kind of transfers. It wouldn't surprise me if MtGox was influenced by organized crime, they are in Japan and the Yakuza love these kind of quasi-legal schemes as of late.

Re: I'm the guy who bought 259684 Bitcoins for under $3000 yesterday

#204

The community that for months has been preaching the virtues of the currency nobody can control is suddenly arguing that a middleman should roll back a bunch of free-market transactions. I decided a while ago that arguing against the "bitcoin has no problems" crowd was futile: people are too enamored with the idea to see problems like this until they happen.

It's not a BitCoin problem, this entire episode revolves around one exchange (MtGox) and its security problems. Mt Gox Exchange =/= BTC Currency Nasdaq Exchange =/= USD Currency

I think you may be able to argue that it is partially a bitcoin problem because it has been claimed that this attack was based largely on hacked bitcoin accounts (via virus/worm). I think this problem can be solved in the future quite easily though.

Re: I'm the guy who bought 259684 Bitcoins for under $3000 yesterday

#205

The community that for months has been preaching the virtues of the currency nobody can control is suddenly arguing that a middleman should roll back a bunch of free-market transactions. I decided a while ago that arguing against the "bitcoin has no problems" crowd was futile: people are too enamored with the idea to see problems like this until they happen.

This would make no sense if you supported a decentralized cryptocurrency, but would make perfect sense if you were worried about losing the ability to cash out of your penny stock of choice when, due to freak coincidence, a separate scam targeting the same stock imploded prior to you being able to unload the shares you had acquired for fractions of a cent at $17+ each.

The Bitcoin "community" is an emergent, distributed boiler room. They could just as easily be selling pink clam shells, tulips, or shares in an insolvent company that had a business plan to make pool cleaning agents. The underlying commodity doesn't matter. What does matter is that the widely disbursing the underlying commodity early gave them enough of a following, including folks who are savvy enough to think that they are the ones getting rich off the marks (a classic element of fraud), to attempt to convince other people that there is actually intrinsic value in what they are selling.

Every article about Bitcoin which makes it to HN -- yes, including ones in mainstream publications -- is in effect a PR hit planted by a new breed of the old boiler room scam.

Re: I'm the guy who bought 259684 Bitcoins for under $3000 yesterday

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I read it as he was watching a market free fall Yeah, I think initially there was that. But after he bought he began to suspect there was fraudulent activity. And he still transferred the money out. The problem was not the buying, it is suggesting the MtGox is responsible for providing him with a free lunch now. > wasn't the same . . . No, but there was a commonality in that foul play was suspected. The point of th…

So if I get word that Anonymous is planning on doing another blitz trying to create a rumour that Steve Jobs has died, would I be wrong to short Apple? It doesn't matter whether the forces moving the market are legitimate or not; you can't be faulted for playing it. What you're advocating might be moral, but it's not in keeping with the principles of a free market.

[deleted]

Re: I'm the guy who bought 259684 Bitcoins for under $3000 yesterday

#208
post #107
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that they never stated they'd interfere, it's that they explicitly stated they would never interfere by publicly disclaiming any role as a counter-party. If they were hacked, it's their responsibility to make things right with the party that was hacked, and not interfere with anyone else's accounts/trades. Anything less does severe damage to faith in the exchange, which tends to lead people to only keep mone…

Although I understand your perspective, and I agree that they have to do something to "make things right," I'm still inclined to accept the rollback. As much as I hate to use analogies, its the best way I can think to explain my reasoning. If someone (a hacker) robs a bank (user on MtGox), and they throw the money on the ground as they fleeing the scene of the crime, only for it to be picked up by bystanders (profiti…

In your analogy, the bank is actually MtGox, the organization in actual possession of the coins, NOT the user.

Re: I'm the guy who bought 259684 Bitcoins for under $3000 yesterday

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I read it as he was watching a market free fall Yeah, I think initially there was that. But after he bought he began to suspect there was fraudulent activity. And he still transferred the money out. The problem was not the buying, it is suggesting the MtGox is responsible for providing him with a free lunch now. > wasn't the same . . . No, but there was a commonality in that foul play was suspected. The point of th…

So if I get word that Anonymous is planning on doing another blitz trying to create a rumour that Steve Jobs has died, would I be wrong to short Apple? It doesn't matter whether the forces moving the market are legitimate or not; you can't be faulted for playing it. What you're advocating might be moral, but it's not in keeping with the principles of a free market.

According to the misappropriation theory of inside trading, it seems you would be doing something illegal. Or perhaps you could be convicted of acting as an accessory to securities fraud. Whether it's moral or in keeping with the spirit of capitalism I guess depends on your interpretation of those two things. Personally I don't think capitalism has a finders-keepers rule when participants buy stolen goods, but you may read it differently.

FYI, the information I'm basing this on comes from a similar case in the Wikipedia article:

"""

In 1997 the U.S. Supreme Court adopted the misappropriation theory of insider trading in United States v. O'Hagan, 521 U.S. 642, 655 (1997). O'Hagan was a partner in a law firm representing Grand Metropolitan, while it was considering a tender offer for Pillsbury Co. O'Hagan used this inside information by buying call options on Pillsbury stock, resulting in profits of over $4 million. O'Hagan claimed that neither he nor his firm owed a fiduciary duty to Pillsbury, so that he did not commit fraud by purchasing Pillsbury options.[16]

The Court rejected O'Hagan's arguments and upheld his conviction.

The "misappropriation theory" holds that a person commits fraud "in connection with" a securities transaction, and thereby violates 10(b) and Rule 10b-5, when he misappropriates confidential information for securities trading purposes, in breach of a duty owed to the source of the information. Under this theory, a fiduciary's undisclosed, self-serving use of a principal's information to purchase or sell securities, in breach of a duty of loyalty and confidentiality, defrauds the principal of the exclusive use of the information. In lieu of premising liability on a fiduciary relationship between company insider and purchaser or seller of the company's stock, the misappropriation theory premises liability on a fiduciary-turned-trader's deception of those who entrusted him with access to confidential information.

"""

Of course, IANAL and I could be wrong, but it sounds like the same sort of thing. Information is created about a company by a third party, and someone else uses that information to make trades.

Then again, these two situations are also not analogous, because this guy's trades on MtGox were based on public information (namely that the value of bitcoins was falling precipitously). So he might not have done anything technically illegal, were this a real exchange. However, his trades would probably have been rolled back in a real exchange (assuming the trades were enough to move the market like this), so that still supports my overall perspective that he should not expect to get away with the money.

Re: I'm the guy who bought 259684 Bitcoins for under $3000 yesterday

#210
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a really good point. Who says that there really was anyone with that many bitcoins in their account? Maybe someone just hacked the database, put 500,000 btc into an account, and then sold them on the market? We know the user database was dumped, so why shouldn't we think that someone edited the account balances too?

The way I understand bitcoin is that you can't simply sell coins made by adding them to a db record. Perhaps the MtGox system can artificially generate the appearance of those coins, but the actual validation of the transaction by the network would have failed.

The way I understand Mt. Gox is that they have a giant pool of real btc. They are the "owner" of these btc. So, for instance, if your account says you have 3000 btc, then your 3000 is just an entry in a database, and the only time that actually becomes a bitcoin is when you cash out the coins from Mt. Gox. At that point, they give you the amount of coins that you requested to be withdrawn from their giant btc pool. So, in other words, there aren't actually any specific bitcoins that are assigned to you specifically. You essentially own an IOU for 3000 bitcoins that you can cash out at any time. That's also why they can roll back transactions, because no bitcoins are actually transfered in their system, only database entries that state who owns how many bitcoins. That's why I think someone could update an account's bitcoins balance to any number, and then sell them on the market, because you're not really transferring bitcoins. You're transferring IOUs for bitcoins in a database.

Judging by the amateur security issues they've had lately, I think it's highly unlikely that they have the right controls in place to catch something like that automatically.

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