Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#971

Post by _petronius » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 11:58 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #759

Justsignedup wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this. - Health care - Worker protections - Required time off - Sick time - Maternity leave etc. Here its $15. And you're on your fucking own. If you compare it to completely underdeveloped or dictatorial economies... Sure I guess its way better. But the US shouldn't be comparing comparing itself to that. Its like saying "This engineer is horrible, but he's no…

> In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this. Europe is not one country. I hope you realize it's hard to generalize.

Ah, my friend, but you can generalize: both from the cultural (Europe in general has stronger welfare states than most US federal and state systems provide), and because members of the EU are bound to EU-wide rules on worker rights. Pluuus, since member states of the EU have freedom of movement within the bloc, companies in the EU compete on these and other factors (like salary), raising the overall standard. (Sometimes problematically, due to brain drain of weaker economies, etc.)

So while your comment is half correct, I think you should give the parent commenter the benefit of the doubt before you try and "well actually" them.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#972

Post by dfadsadsf » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 12:57 PM UTC

blablabla123 wrote: post #848

flavius29663 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

You can earn 15 €/h (18 $) on average for cleaning in Munich. Minimum wage is at 9.50 €/h (11.30 $) though in Germany.

Munich is one of the most expensive cities in Europe - cost of living in Bessemer is probably 30% of Munich. You can buy 3bdrm 1500 sq ft house is Bessemer for 60k. You will pay in one year that much to just rent comparable house in Munch.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2414-6th-Ave-N-Bessemer-A...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#973

Post by INTPenis » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

astrange wrote: post #889

INTPenis wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of dead industry in Sweden too because there was a major shift during the 90s and 2000s that remotely located industry in the Swedish forest could not keep up with. I don't know more details, I am only speaking observationally. Someone else might tell you why this happened. I would assume it has to do with globalization and other nations being more competitive than local business.

It's because everyone has to book their washing machines two weeks in advance.

GTFO of my head.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#974

Post by botverse » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 2:01 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #742

bena wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem always comes down to bad actors. If I, as a vendor, could have my people do the work of moving and set up and elect not to use the convention center staff, then there's a way to circumvent the convention center staff and fire them all. You just hire a "vendor" with their own crew to do all the stuff. With no actual work to do, it's justifiable to fire the convention center staff. If people weren't bastard…

Why does a convention center have enough staff to do that setup? That seems wasteful in itself. Sure they need a few janitors to sweep up afterwords, and someone needs to know how to flip a tripped breaker, so they can't be staff free. However the needs of each event are different enough that staff for vendor setup doesn't really make sense.

Because the convention center might be one of the only source of jobs around

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#975

Post by the_svd_doctor » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

sfvisser wrote: post #332

2bitencryption wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be a bit of an ignorant question, but... Are "dying cities/slums" a purely American phenomenon, in terms of rich first-world countries? Is there similarly a "rust belt" in Germany, of cities that had an economic collapse after manufacturing died out? Are there rich European countries with flailing cities that devolve into crime and poverty? Does Europe have its own Bessemers, Detroits? (though I do hear Detr…

Oh yes. Charleroi Belgium comes to mind. Once a prosperous industrious town, now the glory is gone. Recently read somewhere there is a bit of revival, culturally at least. Economically I’m not sure. A bit like Detroit maybe.

Yeah, Charleroi is a very good example. Very similar (in spirit, I don’t have first hand knowledge) to Detroit.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#976

Post by GavinMcG » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

hnunionthrow wrote: post #187

Thank god and whoever else for this. This is amazing. I realize and understand a segment of HN readers are sympathetic to unions(the American version too), and some are vocal advocates as well, but I am absolutely elated at this outcome. Edit: Question: Can this vote also be taken as a proxy indicator of the working conditions not being anywhere close to what the sensational and click-bait media pieces point out to b…

To answer your question, probably not. For a fuller answer, I'd read this breakdown by Jane McAlevey, who wrote the extremely well-sourced "No Shortcuts: Organizing for Power in the New Gilded Age" about the importance of actual organizing, rather than just trying to drive an approval vote: https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/bessemer-alabama-...

Basically, there were a number of really bad tactical errors made by organizers throughout the process.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#977

Post by GavinMcG » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #182

cr1pablo wrote: post #148

Why are people in America against unionizing? In Spain and I think in Europe it's pretty normal, most people do it.

Unions in the EU have very different rules than unions in the US. In particular, American unions can essentially force an employer to become a "closed shop" through a majority vote. Everyone who works there then has to pay union dues and accept a union contract. EU unions involve more worker choice.

That's simply not true in Alabama and many other states, which legally prohibit closed shops.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#978

Post by GavinMcG » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

raisedbyninjas wrote: post #99

tyingq wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is the messaging about dues. Lots of people focused on the short term hit to their paychecks. Most of the stories reference $500/month. That does seem high. Data I can find for other unions shows somewhere between 1 to 4 percent of gross pay as typical for union dues. Assuming $15/hour, 4 percent of gross pay would be $144/month. But, if $500/month is accurate, it's 13.8% of gross pay for $15/hour workers, a…

Is there anything preventing a competitor from funding union dues? Paying dues on half a million Amazon warehouse employees is not cost effective, but starting a snowball rolling in warehouse unionization may be possible. ~2k employees per warehouse x $100/month. Walmart could fund union dues for one warehouse for a year for about 1 million dollars.

Walmart is historically just as anti-union as Amazon. No idea if it's still true, but anti-union material used to be part of every employee's initial training.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#979

Post by SuperSandro2000 » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

Most of the work policies we have are the outcome of unions and left politics. If you yote against them you are voting in the interest of your employer which does not care about you, a replaceable warehouse worker, at all. If you have psychological issues because of stress at work and your back is damaged for your lifetime you are just replaced with someone else.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#980

Post by rmk » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

fartcannon wrote: post #210

aarongray wrote: post #127

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

Most rich countries take good care of their poor. In the US, most states will pay for food, heating, sometimes even internet access, not to mention healthcare, if you are poor. Indigent children also have separate healthcare programs targeted towards them and receive free lunches at school to encourage them to concentrate on school. Furthermore, there is also Unemployment Insurance which provides for months of basic income if you become unemployed. Finally, there is disability payments. This is the situation where you are severely disabled and can't work, in which case, the government will pay you a basic income for the rest of your life. Most of these programs are well-run and disburse money efficiently.

Fraud to get disability payments is very high. People who are unable to rejoin the job market sometimes make the difficult decision to connive with sympathetic doctors to get this. But once you do this, you can never go back to work in any official capacity. This is the one case where people who are chronically unemployed give up and become wards of the state. So the 'desperately poor' are actually taken care of in some fashion in the US.

The problem is that the people who are the 'working poor' often get shafted. These are the janitors who are working all hours of the day, the baggers at the grocery store, the short order cooks, the security people who patrol industrial and residential facilities, etc. Even though their children are eligible for all the benefits above in many cases, it's still difficult to raise a family if there is one breadwinner who makes minimum wage. These people are not eligible for many benefits programs and also do not generally get healthcare from their employers (employers deliberately keep hours/week down to avoid this expense). The problem is, 'taking care' of these people is very hard: they are the majority of the workforce, and I suspect that there is not enough money to fund programs for these people because of the sheer size of this workforce. Also remember that this group oftentimes does not have powerful unions (many subgroups do), which means politicians do not have to listen to them.