Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#931

Post by Ericson2314 » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 2:38 AM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #186

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

Me personally is anti-monopoly. If a union can only operate by forming a workforce monopoly - something is wrong with the model itself.

Yes, the original problem is how did the employers get such monopsony power in the first place. If someone is proposing fixing that instead, I'd love to hear it!

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#932

Post by Ericson2314 » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 2:41 AM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #273

drivebycomment wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition, companies are workplace monopolies. So are you against companies ? If you want to argue you can choose a different company, by the same token you can choose a different union by choosing a different company.

The economic term for is "monopsony," where a single buyer has disproportionate leverage. However, there isn't much evidence this occurs in most labor markets. People can and do often leave Amazon for another job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony

Employers absolutely do have more market power.

Imagine if most employees bring a contract of their choosing from one employer to the rest, and employers are the ones maybe hagling over specific provisions. Really imagine that. Totally different world right?

That's what it would be like if employees had more market power.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#933

Post by Ericson2314 » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 2:43 AM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

The fundamental reasons is the entrepreneurial brain rot that is startup culture that makes all these "temporally embarrassed billionaires" also "temporally embarrassed business owners".

Yes, there are people here that have had bad experiences with American unions, many of which do suck for a variety of reasons, but their stories confirm a prevailing narrative not create it.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#934

Post by JKCalhoun » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 2:45 AM UTC

aarongray wrote: post #127

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

That's even more depressing then that they are accepting what the corporation wants to give them.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#935

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 3:02 AM UTC

psychometry wrote: post #337

ActorNightly wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA needs better education so that people understand economics and labor markets, so they wont calling paid positions indentured servitude.

We need better education so that people stop voting against their own self-interest, in union elections and generally.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#936

Post by angry_octet » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 3:06 AM UTC

shuntress wrote: post #307

marcinzm wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a number of people in a large teacher's union and the stories indicate the union is bad for both good teachers and students. I've personally seen many great teachers leave for private schools and other public systems. The union rewarded the incompetent and did little for rampant administrator abuse.

I know a number of people in a large teacher's union and the stories indicate that the union is good for both teachers and students. I've personally seen many great teachers stay in public schools. The union rewarded the competent and pushed back against administrator abuse.

I find it hard to believe the part where you write "the union rewarded the competent". I've never seen an education union stick up for someone based on competence, it's always connections.

Sometimes I've seen them push back against bad management, but it is frightfully rare. Bullying, discrimination, favouritism, giving young/non-clique staff the worst jobs: all good.

I don't think public sector unions are very good stewards, partly because everyone is in the union. They push against govt objectives (control wages) and politics (push whatever rhetoric of the day is) and seek to gain public support (teaching/learning is essential for society etc). Unless you're a cog in the union machine, they won't be present except to prevent you being fired or make you work extra hours.

This became very evident during the pandemic: unions stuck with (1) better pay, (2) keep leave. While (1) is essential, the real problem was (3) death. But adjusting the school year, virtual teaching, classroom ventilation, support for students: nothing, except opposition. They wanted nothing to change. It was bonkers.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#937

Post by lvs » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 3:15 AM UTC

clydethefrog wrote: post #253

lvs wrote: post #91

Can't believe they pulled this off. Incredible.

Who is in "they" in this context? Are you painting Amazon as the David in this situation versus the Goliath of dying US labour organisation?

No. They is obviously Amazon, and I am expressing shock they were so successful in scamming their workers into voting against their own interests.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#938

Post by dbsmith83 » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 3:18 AM UTC

claudiawerner wrote: post #694

gruez wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...or maybe they just have differences in opinion to you?

That's entirely possible, and very likely. However, that does not do away with rationality completely. For some given situations, with data on the situation and a set of options, we can deduce pretty quickly what is rational to do, what is right to do, and what is in one's interest to do. This is how we (and that includes me and you) are able to criticize people on those grounds all the time. If someone is poor and h…

> If someone is poor and has a choice between buying a stereo system and saving the money in a high-interest bank account, I doubt you'd have any problem saying that it's in their self interest to do one of those options and not the other

Curious, what would you say is better to do? I could see either one of those choices as being equally rational and justifiable. I honestly lean a little more towards the stereo. Your answer depends on your outlook in life and your interests and wants/needs in the moment. It's not so simple as objective 'data on the situation'. Furthermore, claiming that you can deduce quickly what is rational and right for someone else is a little condescending.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#939

Post by sb057 » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 3:43 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #281

Conservative Alabamans fleeced into voting against their own self interests time again? I'm shocked. In all serious, the political theater espoused on these people has eroded their critical thinking, and this will come back to haunt us when there comes a time for serious leadership in the face of a changing climate, and all we have at the helm are grifters protected by their blind sheep majorities.

>Conservative Alabamans

Bessemer voted about 5:1 in favor of Biden in the 2020 election.

https://www.sos.alabama.gov/sites/default/files/election-dat...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#940

Post by xyst » Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 3:44 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #616

"Here's exactly how these people should have voted" – legions of San Francisco software engineers making $550K/yr convinced that they know everything about the lives of warehouse workers in Bessemer, Alabama making $15/hr.

I make $550K/year when I close my eyes at night