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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, it came from working for a massive union (government, not US) for many years. The downsides are real: hard to fire bad performers, your merits don't matter at all (the guy doing the bare minimum job description gets the same raises as you), wayyy too much focus on seniority (for promotions, vacation selection, etc), and overall just too many rules (for example, "unlimited vacation" works great with my cur…

I think it is important to note that you are describing some unions, not all unions. Being locked into one caricature of what a union should look like is a huge driver of anti-union sentiment. People learn to think that this is the only version of a union that does or can exist, because anti-union messaging pounds these points over and over. By every metric, unions provide massive, tangible benefits to most members.…

> By every metric, unions provide massive, tangible benefits to most members

Mind citing your source or perhaps one example of a good union? I'm genuinely curious

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#612
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economic term for is "monopsony," where a single buyer has disproportionate leverage. However, there isn't much evidence this occurs in most labor markets. People can and do often leave Amazon for another job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony

I agree - I was just pointing out the absurdity / inconsistency of the argument by AlexTWithBeard.

I don't think it is absurd or inconsistent. The UAW works very hard and effectively at ensuring that GM, Ford, and Chrysler hire as few non-union employees as possible. The UAW has monopolized the autoworkers labor market and thus have historically been able to extract great rents from it.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler on the other hand can do practically nothing to prevent a machinist or welder from leaving to work at literally thousands of other companies in dozens of industries across the country that require those skills.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#613
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

There are plenty of jobs in western Europe that will pay similar and won't force you to pee in a bottle or your pants. That's ignoring the whole healthcare situation... which I think you're leaving out of the equation. 30 seconds of searching indicates the average grocery store clerk in the UK makes 8.80GPB/hr. Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. https://www.payscale.com/…

You conveniently chose one of the wealthiest countries with the highest wages. Here is a more realistic look at monthly min wages across the region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#614

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

There are pros and cons to unionization, but imo not all workers should unionize. Most of my hardcore union friends think I'm "anti union", even though I think some workers should unionize for their own good (I'm looking at you, non-tenured college professors.)

I come from a union town. My grandfather was a union organizer and disowned his sister for crossing a picket line. My mother worked in a union her whole life. My father was a union steward, then halfway through his career entered management and had grievances filed against him. I was - briefly - a dues-paying member of a union as a teenager (IBEW) for my summer job. I have many friends in trade unions (plumbing, electrician, etc.) and I have friends in SAG.

The relatively high standard of living I enjoyed as a child was in large part the result of my parents being in unions.

Sure, mom had to sometimes see less skilled co-workers get promoted before her due to seniority, but she wouldn't have had the good pay, benefits, or job security without the union. That's the trade-off, and for her it was worth it in the long run.

However, the downside of a union encouraging low productivity can be very real.

Case in point - where my father worked, the union was so entrenched that the high seniority factory workers were making as much as local software developers (nothing necessarily wrong with that), but their productivity was far below workers doing the same job in a non-unionized factory being paid far less in another state. When they were asked to increase productivity to meet that level, they balked. For years. Then went on strike. And as a result, at least partly, that business was sold off and a lot of them were laid off.

It's always a set of trade-offs but I think plug-and-play workers should organize. They need to be able to collectively bargain. They just don't have the same individual leverage like say, software developers.

The problem is that we're not in the heyday of unionization anymore. Few industries are unionized nationwide, so companies can just move to another state. Unions don't have the leverage they used to, so organizing can end up being a footgun. That might mean that business has too much of an advantage, not that unionization is bad, but it depends on your worldview. But without unions, it's just always going to be a race to the bottom for unskilled labor. How could it not be?

Trade unions and guilds (like SAG) are a totally different animal.

SAG is great because you work for an ephemeral production, not a company. Game development should definitely adopt this model, because games are really just movies now. You get your benefits through the union when you're not actively working, etc. Not a bad deal, and probably better for the production companies.

Trade unions - they restrict the supply of labor, driving prices up, but they police themselves and maintain quality. I would be uncomfortable hiring a non-union plumber for anything non-trivial.

Anyways, like I said, it's all a set of trade-offs, and those vary depending on the industry.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#615
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

There are plenty of jobs in western Europe that will pay similar and won't force you to pee in a bottle or your pants. That's ignoring the whole healthcare situation... which I think you're leaving out of the equation. 30 seconds of searching indicates the average grocery store clerk in the UK makes 8.80GPB/hr. Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. https://www.payscale.com/…

How true is this "Pee in a bottle" thing? It sounds like a single anecdotal evidence widely used as a prop for arguments. Is there a systemic "pee in a bottle" problem at Amazon? I have a hard time believing this.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#617

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

Wikipedia: Indentured servitude is a form of labor in which a person (an indenture) agrees to work without salary for a specific number of years for eventual compensation or debt repayment.

"Without salary"

"WITHOUT SALARY"

And no, the government isn't your nanny. What a bunch of leftist doo-doo. Learn a bit about how horrible unions were in the 70s, and maybe I'll be convinced that "education" is actually a pathway to knowing what's best for yourself (as others suggest)

They make the right choice.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You believe so, but at least Wikipedia says the US are 22nd per capita (which is more relevant than the total spending) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_...

> Wikipedia says the US are 22nd per capita I see USA at 10 in per capita section in your wiki link.

so either way the us is not at position number 1... at that point it doesn't matter.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#619
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The warehouse workers get the same (extremely generous) healthcare as every other Amazon employee (due to ERISA). And even if they didn't, through the Affordable Care Act, someone at that income level can buy a "Gold" plan with low deductibles for $75/month. Obviously for Amazon workers, that's irrelevant. K-12 education is free, and once you factor in-state tuition and FAFSA, university is also basically free for an…

You're conflating FAFSA and Pell Grants. FAFSA is an application for student aid. Pell Grants are the federal government grants given to low-income students. The lifetime limit for Pell Grants is $6,3465. As a low-income student, you may also be eligible for Stafford loans, which are federal subsidized loans. Subsidized meaning that the government pays for any interest accrued while you're a part time student, in you…

Sorry to hear that you had $80k worth of debt, that's certainly a lot. It's also several standard deviations above the median. The median student loan debt in the US is about $17,000 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2020/02/03/student...).

In Alabama, you can actually use the net price calculator here: https://financialaid.ua.edu/net-price-calculator/

For a family of 2 that earns minimum wage tuition goes as low as $8,000/year in total, and that's excluding any Federal grants or loans.

Generally speaking, sticker price != net price for the vast majority of students: https://www.manhattan-institute.org/new-approach-curbing-col...

From the link: "The average annual net cost at a four-year public college has grown by almost 81% beyond inflation over the past decade, to $3,870."

Again, I'm sorry to hear about your personal experience; it's totally valid. It's, however, not representative of the median or the majority of the lower class.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#620
post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I just want a functional healthcare system and for them to continue to make $15/hr.

>Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Sorry, are you seriously trying to claim an HSA is better than universal healthcare? >Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I jus…

If you have a HSA it is just as good as any other universal health care. Depending on what you decide to value you can argue it is better or worse, but either way for practical purposes you don't have to worry about going to the doctor when you need to.
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