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Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

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Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like people are doing a poor job distinguishing between "engineered" and "leaked." There is, from my understanding, reasonable evidence to conclude the virus was not engineered from the perspective of "we took genes from one virus and moved them to this virus," but there's no evidence disproving the idea that it was the result of gain of function research. My personal feeling is that these statements are true:…

My personal feelings are that all 3 are possible, but approximately 0.0001% of people will actually consider the likelihood of each one, but rather, most will choose whichever one is most convenient and comfortable to believe in. Of course as an Asian person, whatever people believe in will have a direct impact on me. I remember after 9/11, the amount of awful things that were said and done to the Sikh population in…

I assign non-negligible probability to each of them. I don't know.

But I hate the stupid racism and hate around it. COVID-19 attacked every country. With the exception of, like, New Zealand (but it affected them as well... had to shut down their borders, etc).

These viruses are a threat to all humanity. I just want us to fight them better and help everyone.

I think it's super important that we both simultaneously hold China accountable (rhetorically, in the social sphere at very least) for aggressive expansionary actions (i.e. vs Hong Kong, Taiwan, the Philippines) and human rights abuses (Uighur, etc)...

...while simultaneously trying to help everyone do better, including the Chinese, to face common threats (like novel viruses, climate change, etc). And we must not start up a new Cold War with all its proxy conflicts, death, and unnecessary economic suffering and threat of annihilation.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And on a small scale, I had that post reviewed by 8-10 working PhD virologists before I posted it as part of the editorial process. Not a true peer review since I know them and it wasn't blinded. But I want to be clear it's not like I just wrote it out of nowhere. Again with the appeal to authority. Argue the merits of the argument. Not who is making it (which is almost all you've done). Except in this case, the mer…

I asked if you wanted to talk explicitly about the science, you said no. Until you agree to that, I'm good. Thanks for the interesting thoughts, but I think for my own mental health, I'm good.

Drop the gatekeeping and appeals to authority and we have an agreement?

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked if you wanted to talk explicitly about the science, you said no. Until you agree to that, I'm good. Thanks for the interesting thoughts, but I think for my own mental health, I'm good.

Drop the gatekeeping and appeals to authority and we have an agreement?

as long as we're discussing the molecular science, I won't have to bring any credentials up. But you just /had/ to get those two little accusations in there, didn't you?

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drop the gatekeeping and appeals to authority and we have an agreement?

as long as we're discussing the molecular science, I won't have to bring any credentials up. But you just /had/ to get those two little accusations in there, didn't you?

OK so if you go back to here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26757986

You don't have any molecular biology refutation that I can find.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#405

Judging by the comments in this thread, it seems a lot of people are still unaware that: 1. Gain of function research primarily uses samples collected from nature, and seeks to stimulate their evolution in as natural a way as possible to learn how viruses evolve in nature. If such viruses were to escape the lab, they would appear "natural" 2. It's not xenophobic for people from the US to suggest the possibility of a…

I feel like people are doing a poor job distinguishing between "engineered" and "leaked." There is, from my understanding, reasonable evidence to conclude the virus was not engineered from the perspective of "we took genes from one virus and moved them to this virus," but there's no evidence disproving the idea that it was the result of gain of function research. My personal feeling is that these statements are true:…

In some sense, it doesn't matter dramatically which of the 3 it was.

All seem plausible because...

1) gain of function research is super risky and there have been lab escapes before. We need to do MUCH better about lab leaks. We should spend more on security and have greater transparency. We should also question whether it even makes sense to do that kind of research.

2) Same thing for natural research sample being leaked...

3) wet markets are probably a really bad idea. And we should probably keep a better eye on natural virus variants, HOWEVER... that's somewhat in conflict with the "maybe this research isn't worth it" line of thinking.

So we have some somewhat hard trade-offs, here, but there are aspects where we can just do better. Like, whenever we do do research on viruses, we should probably be a LOT more careful about how and when we do it.

And although it's very unlikely the virus was engineered, we should probably be careful with the technology that would let it be engineered. The technology that makes sequencing novel virus strains and developing novel vaccines using mRNA also makes it easier to engineer a virus. This is a tough one because if we had clamped down super hard on mRNA tech too early, we would've been perhaps unprepared to make a vaccine...

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#406
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how a standard of proof works. I’m more interested in knowing how you benefit by coming to China’s defense here. I’ll read your arguments. I mean, I did read the first one and it was a staggeringly ill-conceived straw man.

Hi I'm not "coming to China's defense" here. I am no fan of the Chinese government I literally find them horrifically oppressive and a place I would /never/ want to live. I am no fan of China. I also anticipated this exact criticism and wrote a whole response to it. See here (#4): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vRbACWf90iBC35xNOwlI5bWcUq0...

Yes green account, whatever you say.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That SARS-COV-2 was cooked up in a lab This is a straw man argument. No one is seriously claiming that this is a "cooked up" (artificially created) virus. It could be a natural virus that escaped the lab.

Hi, I actually wrote a direct response to this idea in my original post. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vRbACWf90iBC35xNOwlI5bWcUq0... (Footnote 1) Also, you can literally look around on this exact post and find people who believe that this virus was cooked up in a lab. There were also a lot of people on my original post who believed that. As is often the case: never underestimate the intellectual overconfidence of…

James,

I read your post on Reddit back in the day. It was evasive and frankly condescending because you basically argue against something no-one familiar with the science is claiming: that COV is a chimeric virus that is the product of copy-and-paste genetic manipulation rather than directed evolution or gain-of-function research that has resulted in phylogenetic drift against something that was found in the wild -- most likely RaTG13.

And why should anyone take your writing seriously when you don't even talk about "gain of function" research or the various other techniques that have been used in the past decade to aerosolize viruses like H5N1? If you know about them and are deliberately omitting all mention and analysis you are just being dishonest. If you don't then you clearly aren't an expert.

There are also lots of on-topic scientific claims you could address that would let people evaluate your competence and also provide illumination -- what do statistical models say about how long it would take for RaTG13 to evolve into COV19 in the wild? What about in a lab? How likely or unlikely it is to find virii so far away from known ancestors? What are the chances of finding them once we start looking in the wild -- should we have expected to find a closer ancestor by now? And what about the claims made by the State Department about WIV, its closure in September (related: who in the West should be able to confirm/deny if this is the case)? I'd also personally be interested to hear how long it takes to develop research mice with ACE2 receptors since their existence by mid-2020 surely suggests a targeted research agenda that preceded the outbreak? Could scientists in Beijing really have done that in 2 months or whatever?

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to frame the top two or three most credible lab-escape scenarios that work with what is actually public knowledge. Then address the evidence for and against. Setting up strawmen argument, knocking them down and then virtue-signalling on racism isn't useful or on-topic.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#408
Yeah I get people want to point fingers as useless as it will be. But just tell me how we are going to protect ourselves from someone like Putin or Kim Jong-un doing it on purpose the next time when half the population refuses to mask or get a vax and stop it. That's the far bigger problem. You'll never stop it happening a second time but you can prepare with policy.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#409

> The virus does have an inexplicable feature: a so-called “furin cleavage site” in the spike protein that helps SARS-CoV-2 pry its way into human cells. While such sites are present in some coronaviruses, they haven’t been found in any of SARS-CoV-2’s closest known relatives. This is false. First of all it should be stated clearer that there has been parallel evolution across several branches of coronaviruses which…

I have to nitpick. I don't believe there's evolutionary pressure to evolve this. Evolution is (going to piss some people off) almost entirely random. There may be purifying selection but that has an entirely different set of properties than the idea of Lamarckian evolution. Edit: Perhaps to clarify, what I'm trying to say is that evolution does not have foresight. And this is not my opinion, but merely that of Eugene…

I hate to nitpick. How do you end up bringing Lamarckism into this? It's thoroughly discredited, and misleading to call it 'evolution'. Did you just travel here from the late 19th century?

Mutations are entirely random, usually deletrious. Evolutionary pressure is the selection for fitness.

Re: Scientists who say the lab-leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 shouldn't be ruled out

#410

Judging by the comments in this thread, it seems a lot of people are still unaware that: 1. Gain of function research primarily uses samples collected from nature, and seeks to stimulate their evolution in as natural a way as possible to learn how viruses evolve in nature. If such viruses were to escape the lab, they would appear "natural" 2. It's not xenophobic for people from the US to suggest the possibility of a…

Hi, I have a PhD in virology focused on emerging viruses, and a few months back I wrote a very lengthy and involved piece full of sources. And in there, I describe exactly how wrong your point 1 is. And how misguided your point 3 is. The post also won a "best of r/science 2020" award! You can find it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did...

Thank you for all that info and for taking the time to write it. Don't know why people can't be bother to just follow the link and instead expect you to repeat it all here.
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