Live data from Hacker News

Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

wsj.com

811–820 of 1001 posts

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#811
post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unemployment itself doesn't cause crime, but unemployment and a weak social safety net will definitely cause crime. I've lived in Western Europe countries with absurdly high unemployment rates, to this American, >10%, 25% youth, and I never felt unsafe, mostly. You got a stipend, subsidized housing, and job training. But in the US, unemployment, desperation, and easy access to firearms can be a big problem. BTW, I'm…

Except there are two problems with this theory. One unemployment is just as correlated with crimes of passion as it is crimes of opportunity. There’s no reason why a lack of job training should lead to rape. Two is that America’s high crime rates well preceded the advent of the modern welfare state. New York had much higher crime than London even in the 19th century at the height of Victorian social Darwinism and Dic…

> One unemployment is just as correlated with crimes of passion as it is crimes of opportunity. There’s no reason why a lack of job training should lead to rape.

I think there is a clear reason: nihilism and depression. If you have resigned yourself to being unemployed and impoverished forever, what difference does it make whether you're in jail or not? It's the same reason we argue that jailing the homeless is pointless. They don't care; life in prison might even be better in terms of quality of life. Sure, there's less freedom, but the poorer you are, the less the delta in freedom is. You don't have access to a lot of the freedom that financially healthy people have to begin with. Jailing them is like trying to drown a fish. We don't have any functional punishments for people who don't care about their life (I'm not advocating that we try to invent some).

You mentioned rape specifically. The prevailing theory afaik is that rape is about control over someone else rather than sexual gratification. There are plenty of ways to have sex; the floor on sex worker prices is shockingly low. Doubly so in extremely poor areas. It's not shocking to me that people with almost no control over their lives would lash out in ways that grant them control, or at least a feeling of control. If you're poor and have no safety net, you have little control over your housing (can't afford to move), your job (don't have a rainy day fund to tell your boss to fuck off), your food (you eat what's cheap, or what the food bank will give you), your money (you're lucky if you even have enough to pay bills, much less have money left over that you can pick what to do with), etc. Your life becomes a constant chain of being shunted around and manipulated by people who do have money.

Crimes of opportunity are an attempt to lift yourself out of poverty. Crimes of passion are an attempt to cope with the struggles of living a life that you have almost no control over.

I'm not attempting to absolve anyone of responsibility for their actions, but I can see how someone would make that choice.

Also, suicide is an act of passion, and it's highly correlated with unemployment.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them. How did we as a nation go from the land of the free, a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, to "beg for scraps or you will starve."

who the fuck is begging for scraps. with 15$ an hour they are living like kings in their hometown, above the median income

Above the median income in a small town doesn't mean you've got a great absolute standard of living, it just means you're better off than others in your town.

If a company can sell its products two towns over for 2x the price Bessemer can afford, it's not going to slash prices in Bessemer just because everyone there is poor.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#813
post #7

I'm confused, why did they need a vote to start a union? Here in the UK pretty sure if a load of workers want to start a union, they can - irrespective of whether they're in the majority or not. Sounds to me like the circumscription of a need for a majority itself comes from anti-union legislation.

The election is required in our laws: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/29/159

Why it came to be that? I speculate that both existing unions and non-unionized businesses preferred the election accompanying single representative system, since it entrenches both. It preserves the status quo mostly, and gives power to existing unions that can run expensive election campaigns over a simple group of workers bargaining.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a US native I’ve never had someone threaten to shoot me or show me they were armed to intimidate me. I’m not exactly living a sheltered life either. I have a few questions, sorry if this sounds like a lot I’m just really curious. What city are you in where this happens? What are you doing to provoke this kind of behavior? Why haven’t you moved away to somewhere safer?

In my experience it happens a fair bit at the long, long, long immigration lines at US air ports if you are not a US citizen. Guards fondling their gun holster and shouting at people for using a phone or sitting on the floor after queuing for 3 or 4 hours. Welcome to America. I guess you don't experience this if you are a US native. And also obviously it happens frequently in SF from the homeless people. That is prob…

Given that Americans are generally warm and approachable, it is quite surprising just how hostile their border officials.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think being really broke greatly hinders your ability to think rationally. I never committed any violent crimes, but I know throughout most of 2016 I was really really broke (about $15,000 credit card debt, 3 months of unpaid rent, a lawsuit from my landlord for the back rent). In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. My desperate brain…

Sounds like it hints at a nasty feedback loop. "Are they stuck in financial trouble because of poor impulse control or are they stuck with poor impulse control because of financial trouble?" Singular they that is. It is easier to think long term while feeling secure but not thinking long term can lead to becoming insecure. Not trying to make any moral or blame judgements here - just pondering origins of problems and…

This used to be a debate and it’s really not anymore. It was primarily the right that used to argue that the reason people committed crime was because of their attitudes and social norms. But with over the last few decades, large parts of white Midwest and Appalachia are facing the exact same circumstances that inner cities faced for decades. So even some conservatives have started to agree with the side of crime follows economics rather than economics follows crime.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person earning $15 Amazon in Bessemer is solidly middle class for that town. https://247wallst.com/special-report/2019/07/22/worst-cities...

Rightly so, but the issue is that the conditions pertaining to work in an Amazon warehouse do not lend themselves to being the kind of work one can do for decades+. People burn out, their legs grow week, and they get no insurance benefits for physical therapy, and that sort of thing. It's just not a sustainable job for most people, sadly.

is it different from manufacturing work or work in service industry?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And like I said, there's up and downsides, and it really depends on what you want out of your career. Some people want the 9-5 clock-in-clock-out with well-defined rules and tasks, scheduled raises and all that, so they can focus on their real life. Others actually like the work they do, and are comfortable working hard to get four promotions in a year and "messiah" treatment from management. I'm sure there are bad n…

> This, exactly this, is the problem with people in the union-mindset. "Oh it's unlimited, that means we don't need to work at all, right?" It means you have a certain amount of accountability and responsibility: "Hey, we just finished project X so I'm going to take Fri+Mon off to go camping" is a regular thing, without having to book your vacation dates a year in advance or deduct quarter-hours from your various "PT…

What's interesting about that Workforce article is that the tone is completely different from the sources it cites. The "2 days less per year" article by Namely that they cite is about how to effectively implement an unlimited PTO policy that doesn't have that side-effect. In the Fast Company article they cite, they found this:

> In a survey we conducted just before we hit the one-year mark, our employees ranked unlimited vacation third-highest among the benefits we offer, just behind health insurance and a 401(k). It beat out vision insurance, dental insurance, and even professional development, all of which ranked highly in their own rights.

Their Unlimited PTO policy didn't move the needle at all on how much vacation people took, but it had a huge impact on how people felt about it. In short, they appreciated being treated like adults.

How the author of that Workforce article got from the two sources they cite to the extremely negative article they wrote is beyond me.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#818

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

Personally, I have no need for one as I've been perfectly capable of advancing in my career without the baggage that comes along with collective bargaining. I'm compensated very competitively, get raises, negotiate PTO, sick days, etc. I also do not like my freedom of association to be infringed, by being required to join a union and dues extorted from me that I do not want to pay for.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#819

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it’s worth, I noticed a correlation between bad company news and union disputes that started about 10 years ago with Boeing. I remember visiting Seattle as you drive by the Boeing facility on the way in, my cab driver was telling me how Boeing was going to shut down the plant and move everything to South Carolina. On that same trip, I was staying at a hotel with a view of city hall from my window (The Artic…

What does that have to do with Boeing?

Sorry. I noticed a significant uptick in negative Boeing press coverage the moment the union dispute started. It went from nonexistent to constant.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the honest story, congrats on pulling yourself out of debt and into (quoting you) privileged life. I see the HN crowd as rather monotonic, and thanks to stories like yours, it shows me wrong, and that’s for the best.

Thanks. It wasn't easy but to be honest having a high-paying engineering job certainly helps. I have no idea how I would have escaped that cycle if I had a lower-paying job.

Good for you. I like seeing stories like this, especially in here.
Post reply on HN